smoking 360

[dolinick]

Just looked the the paper towel photo.

I think there's some oil and gas, both.

At least it's not dripping with wet oil.

First, pull that valve cover to make sure we're getting oil to the rockers.

What oil do you have in this engine? Straight 30? 10W-30?
...and how long ago did you put it in?

2nd, Prepare yourself to pull the intake (depending on what we find out on the oil) and see what's going on with the intake gaskets.


Dennis

I just put it in last week. I was concerned about what I thought was lifters making noise. It is 10w-30. The left side just felt slightly sticky. That's the dark black mark on my middle finger on the left side of the picture.

Dan

[Banjo]

Can you borrow known good carb from buddy? That would help eliminate one variable, I don't know street avanger, but blown power valve can cause poor running and rich. If we could narrow down to fuel smoke or oil smoke, that'd help. Any carb that would bolt up would be fine for this purpose, but gotta be a known good runner that's running now, not been on the shelf for 3 years and needing rebuild!! If I were near, I'd pull my Holley and let you try and I'd help you too. Banjo.

[dolinick]

The videos aren't really helping me much...

These pictures should shed some light on the subject. This is what I found when I removed the valve covers this morning. I do appreciate your help and I am going to do my best to follow your instructions exactly.

You can see the bent pushrods are the same as the fouled plugs #2, #3, #7 and #8.

4321(left to right)



5678(left to right)



Those are the spark plugs that the engine came with. I just put a new set
or motorcraft plugs in last week.







Dipstick!


I dropped a pushrod into the engine when I was trying to put it back in the hole. Luckily I saw my neighbor coming out of his house so I ran over there and asked him for a little grabby thing or magnet on a stick thingy. He had the grabber thing and I managed to fish it back out of the engine. whew! I didn't know it could just fall in there like that. He also gave me the number of another neighbor who is a mechanic. I called him and told him about the bent pushrods and he was actually at u-pull it when I talked to him. He said he could come over and take a look at it when he gets back this afternoon.

To see ALL the pictures click on this link: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dolinick/tags/pushrods/

Dan

[DuckRyder]

Yep, that sheds some light on the subject...

I'm worried about those rockers, with such a large cam and the attending valve springs (which it does look like it has proper springs and retainers.) You may continue to have problems with stock rockers and pushrods.

1) make sure that it hasn't thrown a lifter out into the valley when you put it back together.
2) after all of the pushrods are fixed, rotate it by hand and look for interference particularly between the pushrod and the openings in the intake and the valve spring retainers and rockers.

I'm kind of surprised, it didn't sound that bad to me, but some others picked up on the noise...

With the pushrod shaved like that I'd change the oil and filter too...put at least 6 qts in it.

[Finleyphoto]

Crud!

Ok, this is a new ballgame. Last time I saw pushrods bent up like this was on a 1959 Chevy Napco Pickup I did the engine on.

It had old gas in the tank and I just added gas, and then I did something really stupid --- I put half a can of Berryman's in the tank.

The valves had seized in the head and I had to pull the head (a 261 Straight-6) and take it back to the machine shop.

The valves were coated with this black slime that was nearly impossible to get off, much like today's powder-coating.

One valve was bent, but I didn't break a piston.

I think you need to pull the heads and check for damage.

...And maybe pull the gas tank and have it cleaned.


Dennis

[DuckRyder]

I'd be willing to wager that the pushrods hit the intake, FE's are kind of bad about that. Also the stock rockers and pushrods were not designed for high spring pressures...

Also, when you pull the rocker shafts to replace the pushrods, loosen the bolts one turn at a time until there is no pressure on them, reinstall the same way, evenly...

There is one bolt per side that is longer and has a reduced shank, that bolt goes in the hole with the oil feed to the rockers.

Dan, you probably need to start thinking about either upgrading the pushrods and rockers or changing the cam.

I'd probably change the cam, I think you would be happier with a milder one based on some of what you've said in prior post.

Can you see the tops of the pistons through the spark plug holes?

[Thunderfoot]

From what I have heard on the videos what sounds like lack of oil pressure for the lifters to stay pumped up...
When they have been loosing pressure and collapsing it is very easy for the push rods to hop out of the rocker arms and then jump around and get bent...

[Finleyphoto]

Can you see the tops of the pistons through the spark plug holes?

He needs to check the pistons. Leave nothing to chance.

If one's cracked from a valve hitting the top of one everything else is just a waste of time.


Dennis

[dolinick]

Do you think we bent these when we were trying to startup the engine? We had the rotor 180 degrees out at first and then just tried to set the timing by ear. My cousin had checked through the #1 plug hole for TDC and had set the distributor rotor in 180 degrees out. later I simply turned
it around and then the engine started. Then we monkeyed with the timing.

I may have overheated the engine the first day I drove it to the muffler shop. It was steaming from the overflow tube on the radiator when I got to the muffler shop about a half a mile away. I also tightened the hose clamps which were leaking a little. Now I'm beginning to think that the water had leaked out of the radiator and that maybe I drove it that day without much water. When I finally limped back to my house I added about 2 gallons of coolant. How many gallons does it hold? I didn't realize it had gone dry. We had filled it up a few days earlier.

My mechanic neighbor is going to put the new pushrods in. He said he was going to get a light and look in at the valves to see if they are in place. He has a similar setup he said on his truck (but I think it's a dodge). He also had a ford just like mine before he ran into a tree and bent the frame. He already knew about the holley possibly blowing out the "power valve". I'm not sure if it's called power valve but I think someone had mentioned that on here before. Should we look in and try to see the tops of the pistons while we are at it?

Dan

[Finleyphoto]

Dan:

Those push rods are bent pretty bad.

I'd say it's very possible you might have bent valves at this point and maybe cracked pistons.

Something usually causes the valves to stay down and the distributor has little to do with it.

The valves either stuck, ...or the timing chain/gear broke at some point before you got it and this is left over damage.

You need to look down each spark plug hole at the very least.

If the valves are sticking in the open position, you'll just bend more push rods and maybe do even more damage.


Dennis

[Finleyphoto]

There is "Timing" between the camshaft and the crankshaft which is controlled by the timing chain and gears.

Distributor timing, or ignition timing is in reference to when the spark plug fires to the predetermined valve/piston/camshaft/crankshaft positions.

The camshaft will determine when the valves open and close and for how long they stay open --- and also how far the valves open.


All that distributor will do is determine when that spark plug fires.


Dennis

[Finleyphoto]

Dan:

There's one more thing you need to do, and this is the time to do it.

Get an air compressor and a blow gun with a rubber end that will fit in the spark plug holes.

If you haven't taken the rocker shafts off, do it now. You want all the valves in the closed position.

Shoot and hold air in each cylinder, and watch your fingers around the fan. The engine will try and spin as the piston is driven downward.

This is known as a cylinder leakage test.

If you have air coming up out of the carburetor, the intakes are bent.

Out the exhaust, then exhaust valves are bent.

Cracked or broken pistons the air will go down into the oilpan.

And just fer the heck of it, take the radiator cap off, too! If you get a geyser out the filler neck, you've got a blown head gasket, cracked head or cracked block.

Now, some leakage past the valves and pistons is normal, but if it's a lot then you've been had.


Dennis

[basketcase0302]

Good info for troubleshooting for sure.

One question though...in this pic and the other one of the plugs:


Don't this look like oil fouling? Possibly piston rings gone?
Or is it un-burnt gas on the plugs?

Thanks in advance.

Basketcase

[Finleyphoto]

Good info for troubleshooting for sure. One question though...in this pic and the other one of the plugs: Don't this look like oil fouling? Possibly piston rings gone?
Or is it un-burnt gas on the plugs?

Thanks in advance.

Basketcase

With the valves not opening and closing right, (maybe a broken piston?) who knows.

Could even be a "false clue"

If the valves and pistons aren't right, none of the rest of it will be either.

He needs to do some detective work and exploratory surgery on this engine.


Dennis

[Banjo]

Ok, I'm gonna make you the same suggestion I made to a buddy who bought a ski boat years ago with a 427 Holman Moody engine for $2500 (this was 30 years ago). Take it out and have machine shop go through it before you break something. He didn't (and threw a rod). It's up to you. Used engines are pigs in pokes, as said, I've been burned. It may or may not be too late for you, but remember bandaids can be eating time and money that would otherwise be spent getting it properly diagnosed and reassembled at machine shop.
At very least, if you're not gonna do that, strip it down best you can either in truck or at home and check, check, check, and reinstall a small cam and break it in right (Rotella diesel engine oil and some cam break in lube). A cam too big for stock valvetrain is just going to break stuff, it's not your fault. Maybe driving it without enough water or oil is, but a 292 duration 514 cam is just dang big. Dang big.