smoking 360

[dolinick]

Two of the lifters had come apart.

The lifters coming apart is not inspiring confidence...

What did the intake gaskets look like that you pulled off? Were they tore up and/or distorted?

What's probably happened is the vavles became stuck open and the pistons smacked them, and HARD I'd say judging from the photos you posted of the pushrods.

Dennis

I have to learn to speak more precisely. The little doodad in the middle of the lifter that is held on by that little clip thingy had fallen out of two of the lifters. They(doodads) were laying in the valley. I am about to upload some pictures of the offending lifters. Charlie (my friendly neighborhood mechanic) put one of the doodads back in and it looked fine except the little clip thingy looked a little bent. He recommended that I replace all the lifters or at least I decided I might as well replace them while we have it apart.







I didn't see the gaskets. They are stuck to the bottom of the intake I suppose. I saw a little piece of the cork gasket from thefront of the engine that tore off when we lifted off the intake. It looked ok.


Dan

[dolinick]

That is all wild speculation without doing some additional checking. Is it possible? yes, but it also might all be a huge waste of time and money...

Robert:

Dude, we're going at this like those guys in the Jaws movie about cutting the shark open...

Tell you what... Dan, do that cylinder leakage test that I described.

If I'm wrong, I'll shut up and buy you both a 12-pack of Dublin Dr Pepper.

I'll even go down to Dublin and "bootleg" it myself. (Course, I was going down there anyway...)


Dennis

I am not even going to be home tomorrow if Charlie comes over to work on the truck. Maybe I should have asked him to come back on my day off. I need to reread the posts and write down the things I'm supposed to check. I was supposed to look at the pistons if possible and rotate the engine slowly to check for clearance issues. I guess he can just put it back together tomorrow and not try to crank it or anything yet. I want to bang on the valve springs like the guy at the motor shop told me. Is there a good way to check to see if the valves are stuck or are sticking?

Sometimes I notice that I get advice from one person that is completly different if not opposite someone elses idea. Charlie said to soak the lifters in oil. The guy at the shop said your valves will stick open if you soak them because of air pockets. Then Charlie agreed they do not need to be soaked because they are prelubed. I am also beginning to understand what yall were talking about when saying if they were pumped up with oil or not.

Hey, I am actually learning a lot. I started out with a simple goal: to get the truck running again. I basically wanted to be driving it again like I used to. I had been asking around town on prices of long blocks and trying to find out how much a shop would charge to install the engine. My cousin thought we could go find one at a salvage yard and pull it ourselves. It was at that time that I posted a message here and on craigslist about needing an engine.

I actually do have an air compressor. I'll have to see if I can plug it in and get a hose to reach the truck. I probably will be able to.

Dan

[dolinick]

From what I have heard on the videos what sounds like lack of oil pressure for the lifters to stay pumped up...
When they have been loosing pressure and collapsing it is very easy for the push rods to hop out of the rocker arms and then jump around and get bent...

This sounds interesting to me. In one of my pictures you can see what looks like the pushrod coming out of the rocker a little bit. I'm not sure If it was already bent. Some pushrods were only bent slightly. Some appeared straight. I am not sure if they were all in bent up on the intake or exhaust valves or both.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2395/152 ... 376cee.jpg

[Finleyphoto]

These are the hydraulic lifters, not solid.

From what I can tell in the last photo the intake gaskets are distorted at the bottom. (They are the individual cork ones stuck to the heads at each intake port.)

If you're gonna mess with the old cars, you're gonna have to learn some of this stuff somehow.

It's all part of the "fun" You've just been tossed into the deep end, that's all.

Try and fix/rebuild this thing yourself, or your old one, if you can keep it from gang-raping your wallet...

That cylinder leakage test should settle once and for all how deep the damage is without wasting more time or money.


Dennis

[Finleyphoto]

Repeat of the Cylinder leakage test:

Get an air compressor and a blow gun with a rubber end that will fit in the spark plug holes.

If you haven't taken the rocker shafts off, do it now. You want all the valves in the closed position.

Shoot and hold air in each cylinder, and watch your fingers around the fan. The engine will try and spin as the piston is driven downward.

If you have air coming up out of the carburetor, (or in this case the intake ports since you have the intake off,) the intake valves are bent.

Out the exhaust, then exhaust valves are bent.

Cracked or broken pistons the air will go down into the oilpan.

And just fer the heck of it, take the radiator cap off, too! If you get a geyser out the filler neck, you've got a blown head gasket, cracked head or cracked block.

Now, some leakage past the valves and pistons is normal, but if it's a lot then you've been had.


Dennis

[convincor]

I'm coming in a little late in this thread, skimmed over most of the post and see intake gaskets mensioned a couple times.
He's a link to the pics of my Fail-Pro gaskets after only 1100 miles.
Aluminum intake and heads. Engine ran OK, but smoked. Vacume was good but had 2 plugs that were black. http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m41/ ... 20gaskets/

Check out some of these other threads on gasket problems-
http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82515

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80530

http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... hp?t=25927

[convincor]

Missed the page on the intake pulled.

[DuckRyder]

That is all wild speculation without doing some additional checking. Is it possible? yes, but it also might all be a huge waste of time and money...

Robert:

Dude, we're going at this like those guys in the Jaws movie about cutting the shark open...

Tell you what... Dan, do that cylinder leakage test that I described.

I haven't seen JAWS in a long time...Now I have to find it and see what you are talking about.

I don't disagree with you, all of this stuff needs to be checked, pressurizing the cylinders is a good idea. I am just advocating checking everything and only fixing what needs it.

[DuckRyder]

I don't want to start a "Cork vs Silicone"debate (for the record I am a cork guy) but:

Many edelbrock intakes are designed to use silicone on the end rails and don't have room for the cork end seals. If you (Or Charlie) plan to try to use them the intake should be mocked up and the clearance between the block rail and intake rail checked to ensure there is enough room for the cork.

[Finleyphoto]

That is all wild speculation without doing some additional checking. Is it possible? yes, but it also might all be a huge waste of time and money...

Robert:

Dude, we're going at this like those guys in the Jaws movie about cutting the shark open...

Tell you what... Dan, do that cylinder leakage test that I described.

I haven't seen JAWS in a long time...Now I have to find it and see what you are talking about.

I don't disagree with you, all of this stuff needs to be checked, pressurizing the cylinders is a good idea. I am just advocating checking everything and only fixing what needs it.

So am I. You've probably got a lot more experiance with the high performance stuff than I do.

It's just that I've been where he's at and I've got a "bad vibe" on this engine.

He needs to check this stuff before he does anything else to make sure it's all good before he starts putting stuff back together.

The Jaws part I'm refering to is about where they crack open the wine.


Dennis

[DuckRyder]

Well lets look at the bright side...

We know why it had all the signs of low oil pressure, because it had low oil pressure from the self destructed lifters...

If the intake gaskets were blown, they should get fixed now...

I'm not feeling warm' and fuzzy about the engine either... It does appear clean inside and it at least looks like it has valvesprings and retainers appropriate to the camshaft. At the same time I find it hard to believe that anyone who knew FE's would put it together with a 292/554 cam and stock rockers and a performer intake. Lifters disassembling themselves doesn't bode well for part quality either...

I sure would like the see the other end of the lifters too, could have wiped the cam on top of everything else...

What is bothering me now is why did the lifters come apart? Symptom or Cause?

[Finleyphoto]

Well lets look at the bright side...

We know why it had all the signs of low oil pressure, because it had low oil pressure from the self destructed lifters...

If the intake gaskets were blown, they should get fixed now...

I'm not feeling warm' and fuzzy about the engine either... It does appear clean inside and it at least looks like it has valvesprings and retainers appropriate to the camshaft. At the same time I find it hard to believe that anyone who knew FE's would put it together with a 292/554 cam and stock rockers and a performer intake. Lifters disassembling themselves doesn't bode well for part quality either...

I sure would like the see the other end of the lifters too, could have wiped the cam on top of everything else...

What is bothering me now is why did the lifters come apart? Symptom or Cause?

I'm not familar with the "mathematics" of the performance camshafts.

How much farther will this one open the valves? (...and put the valves in harm's way?)

I have to wonder if all this stuff was damaged before he got the engine...???


Dennis

[DuckRyder]

The only cam I can find with those specs

292/544 is a Lunati Bracket Master II 00054LK

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

It comes as a cam and lifter kit and if Lunati's lifters came apart, I expect they would make it right if you could determine for sure that is what is in there.

Again assuming that that is what is in there it is 230 duration at .050 which suggest that it is a pretty lazy ramp and is not as wild as the "292" specification would initially lead one to believe. They post the RPM range as 1500-5000.

If that is what is in there, it may not be as horrible as I thought.

It is hard to get comparable numbers on factory cams, but for comparison a factory truck cam is probably around .440-.444 lift and 198-204 gross duration, a factory cobra jet cam is in the 270/480 intake and 282/494 exhaust range.

In addition, FEs have two rocker arm’ ratios depending on whether they are adjustable or not, it is not a big difference, but it is something to keep in mind.

Comp Cams has some good technical information on valve events and valve train geometry on their website. I would not run one of their cams in a lawnmower, but the technical information is valid...

Anyway, as the rocker moves through the arc the top of the pushrod moves toward the rocker shaft, this can cause the pushrods to hit the intake, the higher the lift, the worse it gets. It does not take much to cause the pushrod to bend under the elevated spring pressures. Several folks have had issues with Edelbrock intakes and a performer is for all practical purposes a stock replacement intake, so it might not be clearanced for high lift, if the mould might have shifted just enough to cause an issue.

If the engine has stock replacement pistons with stock deck clearance and stock size valves, valves hitting pistons probably is not a huge concern, 360 pistons sit well below the deck. It they are higher compression, well who knows...

I am pretty sure this engine came from a member here, but where he got it I do not know (and I could be wrong about that too)

[Jake11]

Get another cam more suited for a 4000lb truck. Otherwise it's gonna do this over again. Looks like the springs coil bound and bent stuff.

I can tell you this, most likely your gonna end up pulling the motor to fix
all the damage. KP

[DuckRyder]

Have I mentioned yet I think you should replace the cam now???

I apologize in advance if I repeat myself.

Please try to inspect the tops of the pistons, even go as far as to try to clean one off with an old tooth brush and carb cleaner to see if you can see any numbers. Try to photograph it though the plug hole. You are looking for damage and to try to determine if they are stock type or not.

Inspect the straight pushrods for signs of contact with the intake and inspect the intake for evidence of contact with the pushrods.

Did it have a valley shield on it under the intake, if not I advise finding installing one, you could get one from DSC.

Download and review the instructions for the intake from Edelbrock's website. Note they specifically say not to use the cork end seals. If you want to use them, (and I would) you must mock it up and measure to see if there is room for them. If there is not room or you don't want to mock up and measure use silicone (for the love of god some color other than orange , like "Right Stuff" or "Ultra Grey" or "Ultra Black" ) as per the instructions. Also note the instructions caution that you must check pushrod clearance.

You must inspect the lifter foot (the other end, that touches the cam) and if they don't look exactly like the new one you must replace the cam as well.

I mentioned in my PM that in the time frame we were talking about there were some problems with lifters due to Johnson closing down. I would replace the cam/lifter kit. Once you get the old one out it should have a manufacturers name and grind on it. I would send it and the lifters off to the manufacturer with a nice letter requesting "any consideration" they might be willing to give. Depending on whose cam it is and who gets it, you might get a new cam kit (which you could then sell) or a nice letter stating "Can't help you" but its worth a shot.

For what it is worth, I think the cork end seals were preventing the intake from sealing and it was sucking oil causing the smoking and the pushrods were/are hitting the intake causing them to bend. Once the first pushrod(s) failed the lifter(s) failed which dropped the oil pressure.

As far as the fuel, if it is truly gone bad enough to cause sticking valves, it should smell very badly...It is a hard smell to describe but it should be grossly obvious that it doesn't smell like fuel.