What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[sideoilerfe]

That Mustang is pretty impressive. I bet it's fast. I think you did good this time Robroy. Good luck with this engine.

[robroy]

Hey Ryan and SideOilerFE, thanks for replying!

Sounds good Robroy,Let me know when you find out when you are going down there to hear it run once again and i will cruise over in the bump unless i am in school. I will drop off the streetmaster 390 intake at that time.

Most excellent! I'll let you know as soon as I find out!

That Mustang is pretty impressive. I bet it's fast.

Yes I'd think so! I really wasn't prepared for how vicious it would sound; it was quite startling when he fired it up!

I think you did good this time Robroy. Good luck with this engine.

Great, thanks! I'm confident that it'll turn out great this time.

Thanks again for the fantastic replies!
Robroy

[robroy]

Good afternoon!

I remembered another thing from chatting with Tom. I mentioned that it was probably pretty unusual that he'd have the opportunity to re-do an engine with such low miles (ten minutes of idling)! And to my surprise, he said that it happens all the time! People have an engine rebuilt by a non-specialty shop pretty often and then have problems with it, and eventually take it to him to make it right.

I heard that he's even seen several FEs that had the main bearings installed incorrectly, and one that had a crazy amount of crankshaft end play (he could literally rock it fore and aft a whole bunch)!

As ya'll know, I plan on doing a short video recorded interview with Tom about the engine. I've been putting some thought in to what questions to ask, and here's my (very) rough draft:

1. Did the engine appear to have dangerous metal contamination when you pulled it apart?
2. Based on your inspection of all the parts, what are the characteristics of this engine?
3. Considering my application, what effect with the engine characteristics have on the vehicle (how will it drive)?
4. Did you find any surprises in the engine?
5. How well was the engine blueprinted before your work? And how much did you manage to improve it?
6. What estimated performance was the engine capable of before your work, and how about after?
7. If I wanted to get more power from the engine in the future, what upgrades would be most cost effective?
8. How should this engine be timed?
9. What motor oil would you recommend using with it?
10. What's your recommended method for adjusting the carburetor, should I want to in the future?
11. What's the ideal operating temperature for this engine, and how hot can it get before causing trouble?
12. How much manifold vacuum should it produce (so I'll know what to expect on my vacuum gauge)?

Then I'll ask a few questions that aren't specific to my particular engine:

1. What are your favorite, and least favorite things about FE engines?
2. What are the strongest characteristics of engines you build--what aspects of building as you especially good at and proud of?
3. What kind of setup did you have in your 1970 Bumpside?
4. What's your most memorable experience while driving or racing your 1970 Bumpside?

Would these questions be informative and/or entertaining? What other questions would you ask Tom?

Thanks very much for the excellent advice!!!
Robroy

[stephen44]

Good list - I'd be interested on his views on headers vs standard manifolds - there are so many differing views on this !

It should be a great video - and I for one am looking forward to it immensely - thanks for doing this for us.\

- Stephen

[DuckRyder]

It should be a great video - and I for one am looking forward to it immensely - thanks for doing this for us.

I agree, I think I would let Tom know ahead of time and offer him the opportunity for a copy for his website, if he is interested in that perhaps let him talk a bit about the common things he finds in engines brought back to him.

I would avoid mentioning any other builders just us a generic term like "original builder" or "previous builder" to avoid conflicts. (I'm sure you were already going to do this).

[HOWDY69]

Wow...what a great post. I just logged on for the first time in a looooong time. Still the same great advice like I enjoyed when I was planning to have my engine rebuilt. Glad to see Tom getting some business in this tight economy. And yes I agree it is very admirable to be able to keep your cool when disaster strikes your truck.

[papabug71]

robroy, I have been keeping track of your situation & I must say, I would have went crazy pulling that motor back out. You were sooo close !!

Its best you did it this way. Now you will never have to worry about it & you know it was done right.

Also, I dont know what kind of camera you have, but your pictures are GOOD. My junker camera wouldnt have taken pics of that moby dick chunk to save its life. Waaay too small. Your pictures are the bees knees !!

[robroy]

Good morning Stephen, Robert, Howdy69, and PapaBug71, thanks for your excellent replies!

Good list - I'd be interested on his views on headers vs standard manifolds - there are so many differing views on this !

I'll gladly add this to the list!

It should be a great video - and I for one am looking forward to it immensely - thanks for doing this for us.

You are most welcome Stephen! Tom's quite a guy for being up to it!

I agree, I think I would let Tom know ahead of time and offer him the opportunity for a copy for his website, if he is interested in that

Indeed! I talked with Tom about it during my last visit and he's all for it! And I've been providing him original copies (and my edition versions) of all the photos so far, in case he wants them for his site--I'll do the same for the video!

perhaps let him talk a bit about the common things he finds in engines brought back to him.

This I can certainly do! Do you mean engines that he built and are brought back, or engines that others build that are brought back to him? Or both?

I would avoid mentioning any other builders just us a generic term like "original builder" or "previous builder" to avoid conflicts. (I'm sure you were already going to do this).

This is an important point that I completely agree with. The value of the video would drop dramatically if negative statements were being directed towards any identified individual or business. So we'll most certainly leave out the name of the previous builder. And as you know, I have no desire to harm or embarrass them, just to discover the truth and wind up with a top quality engine in #50!

Wow...what a great post. I just logged on for the first time in a looooong time. Still the same great advice like I enjoyed when I was planning to have my engine rebuilt. Glad to see Tom getting some business in this tight economy. And yes I agree it is very admirable to be able to keep your cool when disaster strikes your truck.

Hey there Howdy69, thanks for posting and your kind words! If I'm not mistaken, your truck is running one of Tom's engines, right? How do you like the engine so far?

robroy, I have been keeping track of your situation & I must say, I would have went crazy pulling that motor back out. You were sooo close !!

Very true! It was like being a man who wanted to be married his whole life, but then two days before the wedding discovers that his wife-to-be might be an ax murderer! Strange metaphor but you get the idea!

Its best you did it this way. Now you will never have to worry about it & you know it was done right.

Yes, I think you're right about this!

Also, I dont know what kind of camera you have, but your pictures are GOOD. My junker camera wouldnt have taken pics of that moby dick chunk to save its life. Waaay too small. Your pictures are the bees knees !!

Well thanks very much! The camera's a first generation Canon Digital Rebel EOS (SLR type) sitting on a tripod, using its stock, factory lens. I've taken over 15,000 photos with it so far and only had it repaired once (the shutter mechanism failed years ago).

It's a decent camera but I still have plenty to learn about operating it. Many of the photos you see posted in my threads are "cherry picked" out of many more photos that didn't Cut the Mustard--I often run in to focus and depth of field issues that mess up the photo quality.

Update: I got an e-mail from Tom this morning asking me to call. I read that he got the engine completely pulled apart and what he found was "not good." It's too early in the day for a shot of whiskey or I might need one before making the call!

Stephen, Robert, Howdy69, and PapaBug71, thanks again for replying!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

perhaps let him talk a bit about the common things he finds in engines brought back to him.

This I can certainly do! Do you mean engines that he built and are brought back, or engines that others build that are brought back to him? Or both?

I mean engines such as yours that are built by other builders and then come to him for some sort of problem, with a focus on FE's. As you know FE's can be a bit different, and those unfamiliar with them can do things incorrectly. It would be interesting to hear some "war stories" about some of the things he has run across.

Update: I got an e-mail from Tom this morning asking me to call. I read that he got the engine completely pulled apart and what he found was "not good." It's too early in the day for a shot of whiskey or I might need one before making the call!

Uh OH...

Keep us updated, hopefully whatever he found is not too bad. Better to find it now though...after all, that is why it is there with him.

[r71f250]

"robroy wrote:
Update: I got an e-mail from Tom this morning asking me to call. I read that he got the engine completely pulled apart and what he found was "not good." It's too early in the day for a shot of whiskey or I might need one before making the call!

OHHH boy... I hope and pray its not too bad... When ever its come to engines and transmissions I do my homework and have a pro do it. I have built some SBC before and turned out great, but with todays tech and tollerances I want someone like Tom to do it right the first time with years oof proven longgevity and performance behind him... I Pray it tuns out not for the worst, but for the better... hang in there....

Also, don't start drinkin yet... if I drank for every set back I have had I would be in rehab for life or 6 feet under... I stopped drinking years ago by choice.... man I feel for ya....

Blessings,
AMS

[fuzzier1]

Unlike most shops I've hired, Tom welcomed as many photos as I'd like to take. In fact, he even agreed to a video-recorded interview about the engine (and any modifications he did to it) when I come to pick it up! He is proud of his work!!!

Click on the photos for full resolution editions.

Here's Tom's engine building room. It was very clean and organized looking! The engine in the middle is a 390 that he's building for another customer. Looks pretty immaculate huh?



Robroy

Man that entire thread is FORD PORN That is great stuff. I would even LOVE to have that 427 block that has/had a hole in its side.

900 hp from one of his engines, WOW did he say what it went into?

Fuzz

[DuckRyder]

F and L are actually good news in light of the other developments.

I'm going to guess Tom is going to recommend turning it into a 428 if the rods are good to reuse (it can be stroked to larger than 428 using Chevy rods)

Obviously I'd defer to Toms camshaft recommendation. I think Crower makes really good stuff and I am very happy with my "street roller" with Crower's pressure fed roller lifters.

Unfortunately it sounds like this is going to turn into a fairly extensive rebuild of not inconsequential cost, I am sorry to hear that.

[robroy]

Good evening Robert, thanks for replying!

F and L are actually good news in light of the other developments.

Indeed, it seems so! I was happy to hear that Tom went ahead and had the block sonic checked.

I'm going to guess Tom is going to recommend turning it into a 428 if the rods are good to reuse (it can be stroked to larger than 428 using Chevy rods)

Interesting! I was under the impression that the 428 had a completely different crankshaft than a 390. Or perhaps with sufficient cylinder bore, a 390 engine can be configured to have 428 CID (while still officially being a 390)?

Obviously I'd defer to Toms camshaft recommendation. I think Crower makes really good stuff and I am very happy with my "street roller" with Crower's pressure fed roller lifters.

Excellent, good to know!

Unfortunately it sounds like this is going to turn into a fairly extensive rebuild of not inconsequential cost, I am sorry to hear that.

Yeah true! Oh well. At least I'm now confident that pulling the engine was the right thing to do, and that all this trouble has been well worth it!

I'll be really curious to post detailed photos of all the engine parts and get your expert appraisals!

Thanks Robert!
Robroy

[fordman]

wait a minute. how did i miss soemthing here? i thought the original builder was going to redo the engine? i was wondering wehy this thread was contiuing on . i knew the engine couldnt have been redone this soon. so you took the engine to this other builder and he found all this crap wrong?

[70_F100]

Robroy, this has now, in my opinion, turned into something new. NO WAY, in 10 minutes running, did all of this happen!!!

Regarding:

A) A camshaft WILL NOT wear lobes flat in that time. IMPOSSIBLE!!! Used cam???? PROBABLY!!!

B & L) The cylinder walls will NOT score so badly in that time that the engine needs to be bored just because a windage tray contacted the crankshaft. That metal stayed in the oiling system/crankcase, both of which are pretty much isolated from the combustion chambers.

C) Valve guides will NOT wear enough to require replacement. Guides never repaired/replaced??? DEFINITELY!!!

D) Valve lifters (tappets) WILL NOT wear that quickly. NOT A CHANCE!!!

I know you are a patient man, as I am. However, YOU GOT SCREWED!!!!

Honestly, I would take this to a lawyer and SUE THE PANTS (being EXTREMELY nice!!) OFF of the previous builder. FORGET your ethics. FORGET the terms of the warranty. He knows how long the engine was run. He knows it sat, unturned, for the length of the warranty.

If you question ANYTHING I've said in this post, run it by Tom. If he disagrees, all I can say is that he, also, is trying to sell you something that you don't need.

As you already know, I am VERY experienced with engines, albeit not the FE, but in the case of these defects, an FE is NO DIFFERENT than any other internal combustion engine!!!