What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[Ranchero50]

Where you are at now the only real hard technical parts will be adjusting the rockers for correct preload and dropping the distributor in so it's in time. Timing the cam is simple the crank and cam sprockets will have dots on them that point to each other when in time. You'll be able to feel any problems with the can bearings once the chain is off.

The mains and the rod bearings are what they describe. Main bearings hold the crank in the block and the rod hold the rods to the crank. When checking all you really need to do is pull the front main cap off and look at the bearing surface for trash. If it's showing copper or chunkies you'll be going further into the motor (which you'll be wanting to do if you find bearing problems already). The rod is a little trickier, rmove the bolts tap the cap studs with a brass hammer (gently) so the rod will slip away from the cap. remove the cap, condom the studs, push the rod down so you can see the bearing surface. Of course this is just a teaser of what you'll read in the good books so don't be too worried about it.

Jamie

[DuckRyder]

I guess I am figuring if you are going to have it out and tear it partially down, you've got an overhaul gasket set anyway why not strip it to a bare block and heads and make sure it is spotless, at that point it is nothing but time?

I would pick up about a case of gunk citrus engine cleaner and/or several gallons of kerosene some stiff brushes and bounty (the quicker picker-upper) and make sure you could eat off of it. Of course in California, you probably get 20-life for letting engine cleaner go down the drain...

Of course I'd be tempted to get me a set of ARP bolts for the mains and heads too...even though you can't really use the rear main bolts.

Oh, and yes "mains" is main bearings.

[robroy]

Hey Jamie and Robert, thanks for replying!

Where you are at now the only real hard technical parts will be adjusting the rockers for correct preload and dropping the distributor in so it's in time.

I see! When you preface these tasks with where you are at now, do you mean where I'm at with my plan of action on the engine, or where my skills are at? Or both? I'm just curious about this since I don't actually have a solid plan at this point. But I'm very interested in any potential challenges you can think of pointing out!

Timing the cam is simple the crank and cam sprockets will have dots on them that point to each other when in time.

Okay, got it! And those sprockets are both keyed so they'll only go on one way, right? This part sounds easy.

You'll be able to feel any problems with the can bearings once the chain is off.

After all the work to get to that stage, I'm hoping they'll feel full of peanut shells and horse teeth!

The mains and the rod bearings are what they describe. Main bearings hold the crank in the block and the rod hold the rods to the crank.

I see! Thanks for explaining that.

When checking all you really need to do is pull the front main cap off and look at the bearing surface for trash. If it's showing copper or chunkies you'll be going further into the motor (which you'll be wanting to do if you find bearing problems already).

Okay, I think I understand what you mean. By the front main cap, you mean the one I can remove without taking the crankshaft out, right?

The rod is a little trickier, rmove the bolts tap the cap studs with a brass hammer (gently) so the rod will slip away from the cap. remove the cap, condom the studs, push the rod down so you can see the bearing surface. Of course this is just a teaser of what you'll read in the good books so don't be too worried about it.

Great, I'll read the section of the book in detail before actually taking those things apart. Thanks for the preview!

I guess I am figuring if you are going to have it out and tear it partially down, you've got an overhaul gasket set anyway why not strip it to a bare block and heads and make sure it is spotless, at that point it is nothing but time?

I see your point! For some reason, the Haynes book indicates that pistons should be removed through the top of the cylinders, after removing a ridge at the top that retains them (if it's there).

Do FEs have that ridge?

And by stripping the engine to the bare block and heads, are you recommending that I pull the pistons out through the bottom?

I would pick up about a case of gunk citrus engine cleaner and/or several gallons of kerosene some stiff brushes and bounty (the quicker picker-upper) and make sure you could eat off of it.

I can imagine that it really won't be hard to get it clean, since it's brand new. And from what I can see looking under it, it looks VERY clean in there. The pistons and cylinder walls have an amazing, mirror-like surface.

Also, does Kerosene strip off paint like brake cleaner does? In other words, am I going to wind up having to re-paint the engine?

Of course in California, you probably get 20-life for letting engine cleaner go down the drain...

Yeah true!

Of course I'd be tempted to get me a set of ARP bolts for the mains and heads too...even though you can't really use the rear main bolts.

Any upgrades I could perform while in the engine would help me cope with this experience better! At least then I'd feel like there was a reason to have gone to all this bother (a reason other than repairing something I messed up)! So far I've already gotten the oil pan updated with a convenient drain plug and bought the super nice ARP oil pump drive shaft.

Sorry if this should be obvious, but what's your reason for saying that I wouldn't be able to use the rear main bolts? And by "rear main," do you mean the journal bearing that supports the crankshaft, that's closest to the flywheel?

Oh, and yes "mains" is main bearings.

Excellent, thanks for confirming that!

I did some reading today and discovered what journal bearings were, and now the mechanism around those main caps makes a lot more sense to me! I was also frankly astonished with the concept of journal bearings, in particular how the oil pressure is supposed to keep the metal surfaces from actually touching one another! I didn't know FE engines featured technology recovered from crashed UFOs!

I also ordered the Steve Christ book.

I'll speak with Steve (Proformance Unlimited) in the morning and ask him these things:

1. What brand(s) and part(s) were used for the main and camshaft bearings?
2. What were each of the bearing sizes, if they recorded them?
3. What method did they use to apply torque to the main bearing caps, and how tight are they?
4. What caused the scratches in the blue finish on the rocker arms?

Should I also ask about the bearings between the connecting rods and the camshaft?

Does anything else come to mind, while I'll have him on the phone?

Thanks very much for your great advice and for humoring all my questions!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

Robroy, my thinking is you don't really need to or want to remove the heads at this point. All you will accomplish is getting the pistons out (the top is the only way they come out (unless something really bad happens)). Getting the pistons out mean you need to get them back in after cleaning the bores once you compress the rings which can be difficult if you don't have the 'touch'. you don't gain much area to dechunk by removing them and if the bottoms of the bores don't show any scratches yet most likely there's no chunkies up there.

Personal persuasion is to remove the motor, put it on a stand, pull the intake, pull the timing chain cover, timing chain, cam, clean, clean, clean, inspect the bearings, reassemble on the stand and reinstall.

Oh yeah, per you skill or time comment, that's about average times, yours may be a bit longer since you are new and experiencing everything for the first time.

You can remove all the main caps to inspect (they are the loaded side of the bearing and should show the most wear), the crank sits in the block so you have to lift it a bit to see the upper (unloaded bearings)

Likewise, there's not much to be gained by pulling the heads for cleaning. the oil passages can be flushed with the rocker stands off and the returns go right to the pan so that's a straight shot too.

Jamie

[DuckRyder]

Do FEs have that ridge?

And by stripping the engine to the bare block and heads, are you recommending that I pull the pistons out through the bottom?

The ridge is created by wear, the rings do not rise all the way to the top, so when the cylinder wears it leaves the ridge, so yes FE's get the ridge, but yours being freshly rebuilt won't (should not) have it.

I was thinking you would remove the heads (and disassemble them) and pull the pistons out of the top.

Also, does Kerosene strip off paint like brake cleaner does? In other words, am I going to wind up having to re-paint the engine?

Neither kerosene or brake cleaner should remove properly applied paint, Carburetor cleaner will.

Sorry if this should be obvious, but what's your reason for saying that I wouldn't be able to use the rear main bolts? And by "rear main," do you mean the journal bearing that supports the crankshaft, that's closest to the flywheel?

Yes the rearmost journal cap. It you use the ARP bolts with their washers they interfere with the oil pan rail. Easiest just to use the stock ones although some guys leave the washers out or trim the head on the ARP.

Does anything else come to mind, while I'll have him on the phone?

Your list of questions looks good, I would think that all of the bearings are the same brand. They should be marked with brand and under-size if they did not record it and it comes to that.

[robroy]

Good morning Jamie and Robert, thanks for your great replies!

Robroy, my thinking is you don't really need to or want to remove the heads at this point. All you will accomplish is getting the pistons out (the top is the only way they come out (unless something really bad happens)). Getting the pistons out mean you need to get them back in after cleaning the bores once you compress the rings which can be difficult if you don't have the 'touch'. you don't gain much area to dechunk by removing them and if the bottoms of the bores don't show any scratches yet most likely there's no chunkies up there.

Yes, perhaps that's a good idea. If the payoff is quite small for removing the heads, it would also save me the cost of good head gaskets. Perhaps I'll still remove them if I want to use the ARP bolts though.

Personal persuasion is to remove the motor, put it on a stand, pull the intake, pull the timing chain cover, timing chain, cam, clean, clean, clean, inspect the bearings, reassemble on the stand and reinstall.

Thanks very much for reiterating this to make it clear! I've started to realize that the plans of action suggested by each of my Fordification Mentors differ slightly, and I've been trying to get them all straight (at least so I'm 100% clean on who is suggesting what).

Oh yeah, per you skill or time comment, that's about average times, yours may be a bit longer since you are new and experiencing everything for the first time.

Okay, got it! Yeah I'd easily double those times for me. Not only does it take me longer to figure out what's going on, but I tend to pause during the process to take lots of photos and marvel at the discovery process.

You can remove all the main caps to inspect (they are the loaded side of the bearing and should show the most wear), the crank sits in the block so you have to lift it a bit to see the upper (unloaded bearings)

That's interesting that they have the most wear/load on the bottom half. I guess that makes sense!

Likewise, there's not much to be gained by pulling the heads for cleaning. the oil passages can be flushed with the rocker stands off and the returns go right to the pan so that's a straight shot too.

I see! Thanks for pointing this out.

The ridge is created by wear, the rings do not rise all the way to the top, so when the cylinder wears it leaves the ridge, so yes FE's get the ridge, but yours being freshly rebuilt won't (should not) have it.

Oh! HA! When I read about it in the Haynes book, I figured it was some kind of press-in ridge that kept the pistons in there. I did NOTE that in the assembly section, they didn't explain how to press the ridge back in! Funny!

I was thinking you would remove the heads (and disassemble them) and pull the pistons out of the top.

Okay doke, thanks for stating it again so I'd understand!

Neither kerosene or brake cleaner should remove properly applied paint, Carburetor cleaner will.

Oh is that right? Does this even apply to rattle can engine paint? They used Duplicolor engine paint rattle cans on this engine. I was surprised to find that out, since I'd read somewhere on their site that they always use paint "with hardeners" and don't use the rattle can stuff.

Brake cleaner takes the paint right off[/b] of this engine. I experienced that in a big way while cleaning grease off of the end of the crankshaft before installing the flywheel!

Yes the rearmost journal cap. It you use the ARP bolts with their washers they interfere with the oil pan rail. Easiest just to use the stock ones although some guys leave the washers out or trim the head on the ARP.

Wow, very interesting! I'm glad you mentioned this. I can see me trying to get them to work and being very puzzled about this!

Your list of questions looks good, I would think that all of the bearings are the same brand. They should be marked with brand and under-size if they did not record it and it comes to that.

Excellent, thanks!!!

I got a reply to an e-mail I sent Steve last night. Since I didn't ask for permission to post his writing here, I'll paraphrase his responses.

1. I showed him photos of the stuff found under the valve covers and asked whether he thought I should rip in to the engine to clean it out. He said that he thinks everything will be fine--that it doesn't look severe enough to justify all the work.
2. I asked him what brand the bearings are. He said they're "Clevite 77 P Series."
3. I asked him about the scratches on the rocker arms. He said that they come that way, with small scratches in the finish. I'm guessing he meant that they (the builder) receive them as new parts with scratches already in them.

In response to my other questions he said he'd get back to me.

I suppose I'll give him a call to hear his reasoning behind the replies!

Thanks very much for the truly excellent help!
Robroy

[robroy]

I spoke with Steve on the phone, and he said that he thought the chunks were carbon pieces from the photos, which is why he said not to worry about them. When I said I had confirmed that they're steel, he said "Ohhhh..." He had to get off the phone but said he'd call back in a few minutes.

Stay tuned for more excitement!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

We used to have an instructor at the Corporate office, he was one of those guys that had a bunch of sayings and we referred to them by his name+ism, like DuckRyderism... anyway one of his favorites was "You never want to be the guy saying OH".

Thanks very much for reiterating this to make it clear! I've started to realize that the plans of action suggested by each of my Fordification Mentors differ slightly, and I've been trying to get them all straight (at least so I'm 100% clean on who is suggesting what).

You are right, again it seems to be a matter of degrees and I don't want to put words in the others mouths, but I think at least part of the difference is that I'm as worried about Moby and his friends as the other shavings, particularly if you can't feel the metal-flake it the top end. I can't think of one single scenario that has those chunks being related to the windage tray incident. They had to come from somewhere and the question is where? Most of the possibilities that I come up with are not that good.

I guess I'm in one of two camps here, I see the options as:

1) Clean it up as best as possible (Including 70's suggestion of pumping solvent through the old pump) where it is now, button it back up and hope for the best.
2) Pull it out and completely disassemble it to clean and inspect every single part.

While it is undoubtedly easier to clean with it out, I personally don't see it being worth the effort to pull it if you aren't going to tear it down. It is a matter of opinion though and that is why we have a forum, so you can get more than one opinion.

I suppose that you could pull one main bearing cap with it in the truck and see what that looks like, I personally feel they will look O.K., but quite frankly I wasn't expecting the pump to look like it does either.

What kind of brake cleaner are you using? Is it non-chlorinated? I usually use CRC brand or Orelie's store brand and I use it on painted stuff all the time. I wonder if there was residual grease on the engine when you painted it?

EDIT: What did FE Specialties say?

[george worley]

Robroy this is just a idea, I wonder if you could make some kind of a deal with your engine builder-Steve to do the cleaning and disassemble and reassemble your engine. Maybe you could strip it of every thing except the basic engine itself and you pay the shipping one way and he reassembles it and ships it back to you N/C or at least a nominal charge. Afterall he new about you using the Milodon pan and he gave his o.k. You might mention that you have posted your problems with this on Fordification and have a lot of members reading your posts and replying. To some degree the builders reputation is on the line here. As a retired business man myself I always thought it was good PR to go the extra mile to make my customers satisfied if they had a legitament reason.

[DuckRyder]

Robroy this is just a idea, I wonder if you could make some kind of a deal with your engine builder-Steve to do the cleaning and disassemble and reassemble your engine.

I had thought the same thing, worst he could do is say no so it doesn't hurt to ask...

[robroy]

Good evening Robert and George, thank you both very much for replying!

We used to have an instructor at the Corporate office, he was one of those guys that had a bunch of sayings and we referred to them by his name+ism, like DuckRyderism... anyway one of his favorites was "You never want to be the guy saying OH".

Makes sense! I wanted to describe his tone of voice better, since all "OHs" are not alike. It was kind of like the "Oh" a veterinarian would say after hearing that your dog died!

You are right, again it seems to be a matter of degrees and I don't want to put words in the others mouths, but I think at least part of the difference is that I'm as worried about Moby and his friends as the other shavings, particularly if you can't feel the metal-flake it the top end.

Thanks for clarifying! Just so I can be sure I'm straight on your meaning here, did you mean to type, "particularly if you can feel the metal-flake?"

I can't think of one single scenario that has those chunks being related to the windage tray incident. They had to come from somewhere and the question is where? Most of the possibilities that I come up with are not that good.

Very interesting! In the last phone call I have with Steve (builder), he also said that he doesn't think those flakes on the heads came from the windage tray. He thinks the screen in the pickup tube is too fine to let those chunks through, regardless of the filter bypass valve. Yet his attitude differs as to how concerned he is (more at the end of this post).

I guess I'm in one of two camps here, I see the options as:

1) Clean it up as best as possible (Including 70's suggestion of pumping solvent through the old pump) where it is now, button it back up and hope for the best.

That suggestion from 70_F100 is very smart! I may do that no matter which way I go, since it seems like an effective way to pump solvent through all the places oil normally flows.

2) Pull it out and completely disassemble it to clean and inspect every single part.

While it is undoubtedly easier to clean with it out, I personally don't see it being worth the effort to pull it if you aren't going to tear it down. It is a matter of opinion though and that is why we have a forum, so you can get more than one opinion.

Indeed! Being able to gather so many expert opinions is an amazing benefit.

I suppose that you could pull one main bearing cap with it in the truck and see what that looks like, I personally feel they will look O.K., but quite frankly I wasn't expecting the pump to look like it does either.

I'll at least pull a main bearing cap, regardless of what else I do. It doesn't sound difficult to do and may be revealing.

What kind of brake cleaner are you using? Is it non-chlorinated? I usually use CRC brand or Orelie's store brand and I use it on painted stuff all the time. I wonder if there was residual grease on the engine when you painted it?

I've used a variety of brake cleaners in the past, but never paid attention to whether they were chlorinated or not. On this engine, I plan on using CRC Brakleen, which says, "Non-Chlorinated" on the can. I bought a case of this stuff at NAPA a few days ago.

As per the paint prep, it's possible that it wasn't very good (I'm not sure)! It was painted at Proformance Unlimited.

EDIT: What did FE Specialties say?

Thanks for asking! I decided to send them mail first, so they could have a chance to glance at photos of the engine and debris before chatting on the phone. I'll give 'em a call tomorrow to see what they think!

Robroy this is just a idea, I wonder if you could make some kind of a deal with your engine builder-Steve to do the cleaning and disassemble and reassemble your engine. Maybe you could strip it of every thing except the basic engine itself and you pay the shipping one way and he reassembles it and ships it back to you N/C or at least a nominal charge. Afterall he new about you using the Milodon pan and he gave his o.k. You might mention that you have posted your problems with this on Fordification and have a lot of members reading your posts and replying. To some degree the builders reputation is on the line here. As a retired business man myself I always thought it was good PR to go the extra mile to make my customers satisfied if they had a legitament reason.

Hey George! What your saying makes a lot of sense, and I could ask Steve about this. Yet after chatting with him on the phone today, it doesn't sound like he's oriented towards this type of deal.

About mentioning that this event is more public than he may realize, I'd avoid doing that because it could be a put-off. He could interpret that as a threat (or at least a manipulation attempt) and loose interest in helping me out. After all, according to their rules, the engine is 100% out of warranty at this point. He doesn't even have to be talking to me at all, yet he is. He's being friendly and helpful.

About the metal flakes on the heads, I heard from Steve that he has no idea where they came from, and that they're not a big deal. He recommended just doing my best to flush it out and to not worry about it.

The reason I heard for this strategy was that he doesn't think that stuff could have come from the windage tray. And since he has no idea where it did come from, he doesn't have reason to believe that there's more of it throughout the engine.

I asked about whether he thought inspecting a main bearing was prudent. He said that I could do it if I wanted to, and that it's pretty easy to do so there's not much to loose there. He mentioned that it's OK for it to have a shiny appearance since it's still breaking in, but that I shouldn't see any copper streaks or dings in it.

I asked about the remaining stud on one of the main bearing cap bolts, and the potential for interference with the windage tray. He recommending removing the bolt and cutting the stud off!

Although the stud's a good distance from the threads that go in to the engine, doesn't it sound a little reckless to cut one of those bolts in any way? Maybe it would be harmless.

Thanks again for all the terrific, patient replies!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

Thanks for clarifying! Just so I can be sure I'm straight on your meaning here, did you mean to type, "particularly if you can feel the metal-flake?"

IIRC you had said that you really didn't feel any grit in the puddles of oil except for one instance where you thought you felt something? So that makes me less concerned about the flakes that are causing the "metal-flake" to the oil.

In the last phone call I have with Steve (builder), he also said that he doesn't think those flakes on the heads came from the windage tray. He thinks the screen in the pickup tube is too fine to let those chunks through, regardless of the filter bypass valve. Yet his attitude differs as to how concerned he is (more at the end of this post).

I agree, that is what I've meant when I said that they (moby and his friends) could not have been pumped up there, they are too big to go through the pump and oil passages. I suppose its possible that they slung up there but it is also possible that I'll win the powerball (but not likely if you get my drift). I think it is likely that they are due to either less than meticulous clean up after building, or perhaps the partially assembled engine was left open in proximity with other machine work. (this is just a guess though)

I asked about the remaining stud on one of the main bearing cap bolts, and the potential for interference with the windage tray. He recommending removing the bolt and cutting the stud off!

Well, it you are going to pull that bolt you are one bolt from having that cap off, ensure it is marked so you can reinstall it in the same direction and pull that one to inspect the bearing.

Although the stud's a good distance from the threads that go in to the engine, doesn't it sound a little reckless to cut one of those bolts in any way? Maybe it would be harmless.

I would be more inclined to replace it with the proper bolt, it might even be useful to someone doing a rear sump conversion, although cutting the stud off should not hurt anything (don't use a cutting torch though).

[DuckRyder]

Oh, one other thing, we should clarify "flake". I mean the silver bits in the oil that make it look like metal flake paint, not Moby.

[Ranchero50]

Just waiting to see what you decide or if you have any more questions.

[70_F100]

With the thousands of dollars invested in this engine, WHY RISK IT????

No longer than the engine has been run, they SHOULDN'T BE THERE, PERIOD!!!

Those metal flakes came from somewhere. There could be more of them hiding in the engine. The oil holes in the bearings are always smaller than the passages that feed them. They could be gathering on the ledges there, just waiting to break loose and jump into the lubrication stream.

The engine has had machine work done to it. Was it cleaned properly afterward?

Is there a bearing failing? Cam bearing, main bearing, rod bearing?

Is there some other obscure component failing that you're not seeing?

I've built literally hundreds of engines in my lifetime, from a 3HP Briggs and Stratton, to big 149-Series Detroit Diesel Railroad/Generator engines, and even after running 500-1000 miles before the first oil change, I've never seen this much metal in the oil from a brand-new engine.

Robroy, do whatever you think is right. Put it back together as-is. Flush it out and put it back together. Check the bearings and if they're good, put it back together. You've heard opinions on all of these options, all with supporting evidence.

In my humble, yet experienced opinion, if you don't tear this engine down and check everything, you're only asking for trouble. It may not show up for 30-40 thousand miles. On the other hand, the engine could literally disintegrate on a test drive around the block.