What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[DuckRyder]

Roller cams are spendy for FE's...

Indeed they are, the cam and the pressure fed roller lifters would probably add 1000.00-1200.00 to the tab. They do solve the break in issue.

I hope the current cam and lifter manufacturers are making decent ones nowadays, I did mine in '97 and have had no issues but I've heard stories about stuff done in the last 5-6 years.

I think it is a bit better, but I know they are all still warning about break in oil and at least one is offering a surface treatment to help.

We're on your side Robroy!

Indeed we are...

It makes me curious to understand what formula Proformance Unlimited used to arrive at the numbers they provided to me (436 horsepower and 463 ft/lbs of torque at 4,000 RPM).

I strongly suspect that they are using desktop dyno or a similar program. You can get some pretty absurd numbers if you aren't completely accurate with your input.

I'll find out exactly which cam during my visit next week. It's quite interesting to note that this particular cam has been known to fail in the past. Perhaps that's the source of all the spare metal around the heads--the cam might have already begun to fail before I even received the engine.

See if it has a date code as well, although I doubt that you will get them to do anything, it might be worth giving them a call, they might at least offer a new cam which you could sell or perhaps Tom would have a use for it. The bigger the cam, the higher the spring pressures and the greater danger of break-in failure. My *theory* about the metal is that the valve guides were not properly machined and the retainers were hitting the top of the guides, that would explain the shape and location of the bits and the cam/lifter wear as well. I'll be interested to hear Tom's take on it.

Have a look at Survival Motorsports and Keith Craft's site for stroker options. (I'm quite sure Tom is aware of these as well and can supply the same or similar options)

http://survivalmotorsports.com/FEKitTech.html

http://www.keithcraft.com/ourengines4.html

Scat (and Eagle as well I believe) offers 3 cranks 3.98 (stock 428) 4.125 and 4.250 each requires the appropriate rods and pistons.

[Ranchero50]

Wow... I'm almost speechless, been working too hard lately to follow this.

Coherant thoughts;

1. Too much spring pressure and incorrect rocker geometry will take the guides out from the side loading. Look at the original Twisted Wedge fiasco for the 5.0's

I guess the biggest question is how much wear, how much lift is gone from the cams, are the faces visibly wiped etc.

2. I would rebuild the engine you took to Tom. It's been sonicly tested as safe to bore and is probable clean by now. Hopefully you won't tie a huge amount of money up in the bottom end.

3. I would strongly suggest getting better heads for it or at least compare the valve guide and valve job, valve spring replacement with new heads that are done.

4. Most importantly I would work with Tom to build a motor that will meet your needs, not wants. I feel that you will be much happier with the results compared to what PU promissed.

5. From this point I would try to get blue printed documentation of your existing motor (cam wear, guide wear, cylinder bore and condition, etc.) with the intent of recovering most of your money less the intake and misc. parts.

Anyone else notice Performance Unlimited's initials are PU as in stinks?

Robroy, this sucks, but will turn out better.

Jamie

[DuckRyder]

If the heads are so bad off that guides need replacing, you might consider some Edelbrock heads for it.

I know you are pretty organized, and you probably already do/will, but:

I'd advise you to make a list of questions and options you have and based on some of the things we have said, as well as take pen and paper to make notes about what Tom says.

There is likely to be quite a lot discussed and you don't want to get 30 minutes away from Toms shop and go "Oh I meant to ask about the stroker crank."

[robroy]

Good day SideOilerFE, Robert, PapaBug71, and Jamie, thanks for your excellent replies!

I'm interested in the pics that Robroy will take when he sees the engine torn down. We all have our theories on what happened but the evidence does not lie.

True! I'm very interested as well.

I do think building a new engine with the old 360 block is a good idea to preserve evidence. He can still use the valve covers, oil pan, distributor, pulley's, carb, intake ect... and have a great motor.

This is true, that it's a possibility. Yet my old 360 has been sitting out in the rain for quite some time, so it could be a lot of work to get it pristine again. And I sure like the idea of enjoying that special, "105 Mirror Block" I wound up with.

I like the idea of Caterpillar engine paint as it holds up pretty well and probably very close to the yellow color he wants.

This could be! As chance would have it, a long while back I preemptively ordered two quarts of Eastwood's "High Temp Engine Paint." I ordered one can of Ford Green (the dark green color) and another of "CAT YELLOW." It says these things on the can:

• Utilizes Nano-Ceramic Technology
• Withstands Temperatures up to 650 F
• Super Durable, Chemical and Chip Resistant
• Easy to Apply, Brush-On or Spray-On

Maybe I'll paint a small test area on a spare part with this CAT yellow and see how it looks. It's handy that I already own this stuff.

Roller cams are spendy for FE's so I hope the current cam and lifter manufacturers are making decent ones nowadays. I did mine in '97 and have had no issues but iIve heard stories about stuff done in the last 5-6 years.

Good to know! I'll certainly ask about roller cam options.

We're on your side Robroy!

I'm convinced of this and truly appreciate it! Without all the guidance you guys have provided, I would be completely lost.

I've still never seen one ruined that quickly, but let's look at it from that perspective. The engine was run-in at the previous builder's shop. Hopefully, he ran it more than 5-10 minutes (of course, that's iffy..).

Indeed, the only evidence I have are the two live run videos, which are both brief. Also, when I received the engine it still had exhaust gaskets clinging to the heads, and those looked blackened in several spots.

That would have been the initial run, and from the video, he revved it quite high soon after it was cranked. Again, from this perspective, the damage would have been done at that point, and not when Robroy fired it up and pretty much let it idle during the 10 minutes he ran it.

Could be!

Oh I agree, I think the cam was bad when robroy received the engine. Perhaps it got worse in the 10 minutes robroy ran it (probably did) but the damage was done. One also has to wonder how the metal that was surely in the oil was missed when it was (hopefully) changed after break in.

As I'm sure you can understand, it's pretty important to me to discover the truth about whether or not I ruined the engine with the mistake I made. So this is good input for me!

Since I swapped the oil pan after receiving the engine (a couple of times actually, before the job was "complete"), I had the opportunity to look at the oil that initially drained out (the oil the engine shipped with). It was not fresh oil. I didn't see any metal chunks in it or anything, but it was quite dark looking.

I remember being a little surprised at that, since I'd figure they'd "splurge" on a few quarts of new oil for me! And maybe a new filter too? The filter was also full of this dark oil (no surprise I guess).

The sad reality at this point is that the engine is going to have to be completely reworked, robroy can probably reuse some (most) of the ancillaries, but the long block is going to have to be redone, at substantial expense.

Very true! I heard a preliminary quote from Tom that supports this idea (more on that at the end of this post).

I suppose the bright side is that we (you primarily, in all likely hood) talked him into tearing it down or having it torn down and this was caught before it ruined the block too.

Just to retain contextual clarity, I'll note that the above statement was directed towards 70_F100.

Indeed, 70_F100's advice was a definite motivating factor that pointed me in the direction of tearing it down! Yet what really pushed me over the edge was hearing a pretty unanimous suggestion from all of you guys, plus hearing this strong recommendation from Tom Lucas. When every engine expert I know tells me to do the same thing, I figure the choice is clear!

I think he will get a much better motor out of it and hope that if he decides to try, he can recover some of his money.

I'm certain the motor will be much better! And I've definitely decided to try to recover money on the original build, unless evidence strongly suggests that I caused the motor to come apart. The cost of the original motor was $8,955, and the cost to re-do it at this stage will be around $6,000. That's a total of nearly $15,000, which I'm not willing to allocate towards a single engine.

Of course, if it's true that my mistake caused the motor to come apart, then I'll just have to "suck it up!"

robroy, I hate to hear its come to this but I know you have well over 9k in your engine. If I would have spent that kind of money & I was in your shoes, I would be en route to proformance unlimiteds' "Custom engine facility" to rip somebody a new one. Your more of a man than I for keeping your cool.

Hope it all works out for you

Hey PapaBug71, thanks for the compliment! This situation isn't bothering me too much. I genuinely high positive expectations for how Proformance Unlimited will deal with this situation, once they're presented with all of the evidence. I certainly won't be put off by their response before they've responded!

Roller cams are spendy for FE's...

Indeed they are, the cam and the pressure fed roller lifters would probably add 1000.00-1200.00 to the tab. They do solve the break in issue.

I see! I wonder if it's worth it? I'll put this on my list of things to ask Tom about.

We're on your side Robroy!

Indeed we are...

Thanks you guys--you're the best!

It makes me curious to understand what formula Proformance Unlimited used to arrive at the numbers they provided to me (436 horsepower and 463 ft/lbs of torque at 4,000 RPM).

I strongly suspect that they are using desktop dyno or a similar program. You can get some pretty absurd numbers if you aren't completely accurate with your input.

I see! That makes sense. I suppose since Tom builds these FE engines every single day, his estimates are bound to be quite accurate in comparison.

I heard from Tom that if he knows all the specs of an FE, he can estimate its horsepower and torque ratings and usually be accurate to within around five horsepower! That's the experience he has after building such a huge number of these engines, I suppose!

See if it has a date code as well, although I doubt that you will get them to do anything, it might be worth giving them a call, they might at least offer a new cam which you could sell or perhaps Tom would have a use for it.

That may be a route I'll explore, but if it turns out that the engine was "bad" when I received it, I'll direct my attention towards Proformance Unlimited pretty exclusively.

The bigger the cam, the higher the spring pressures and the greater danger of break-in failure. My *theory* about the metal is that the valve guides were not properly machined and the retainers were hitting the top of the guides, that would explain the shape and location of the bits and the cam/lifter wear as well. I'll be interested to hear Tom's take on it.

Very interesting! I suppose that could certainly be it. I'll run this theory by Tom.

Since Tom is as technical as a guy can possibly be with engines, I'm not able to understand and remember 100% of what he says. Perhaps as long as the original engine builder's name isn't mentioned in a video, I could take a video of him explaining everything he discovered in the engine. Then I could post that on here for you guys to analyze for me!

Have a look at Survival Motorsports and Keith Craft's site for stroker options. (I'm quite sure Tom is aware of these as well and can supply the same or similar options)

http://survivalmotorsports.com/FEKitTech.html

http://www.keithcraft.com/ourengines4.html

Scat (and Eagle as well I believe) offers 3 cranks 3.98 (stock 428) 4.125 and 4.250 each requires the appropriate rods and pistons.

Okay, thanks for these recommendations! I'll include these on my list when I talk with Tom next (which will probably be when I'm back at his shop).

If I'm able to recover a significant amount of the $8,955 I put in to the engine in the first place, I certainly won't mind spending some extra cash to have an even better motor from Tom's! It's just the $15,000+ total figure that gives me pause (if I wind up shouldering the complete financial burden for both engine builds).

Wow... I'm almost speechless, been working too hard lately to follow this.

That's understandable (speechlessness)! I remember earlier on, when I was running in to all kinds of minor defects on the exterior of the engine, I heard some predictions from you about the overall build quality. And I figured you were simply making generous use of your imagination. But now, with all these discoveries, your predictions are being proved true in abundance. It seems like you've seen this type of engine before!

Coherant thoughts;

This heading to your list makes me curious about your "Incoherent thoughts" list!

1. Too much spring pressure and incorrect rocker geometry will take the guides out from the side loading. Look at the original Twisted Wedge fiasco for the 5.0's

I guess the biggest question is how much wear, how much lift is gone from the cams, are the faces visibly wiped etc.

I see--very interesting! I'll take the best photos I'm able to. In fact, I've been studying my camera and have some new techniques that could increase the clarity of the shots.

2. I would rebuild the engine you took to Tom. It's been sonicly tested as safe to bore and is probable clean by now. Hopefully you won't tie a huge amount of money up in the bottom end.

I'm inclined towards this as well. I just like the idea of using this "105 Mirror Block!" Plus there's a significant convenience factor here, since my old 360 isn't exactly easy to access at this point.

3. I would strongly suggest getting better heads for it or at least compare the valve guide and valve job, valve spring replacement with new heads that are done.

I think you're on to something here. Tom mentioned some potential head modifications in his latest voice mail to me (more on this at the end).

4. Most importantly I would work with Tom to build a motor that will meet your needs, not wants. I feel that you will be much happier with the results compared to what PU promissed.

Good point! Since I have this great opportunity to have the motor re-designed for me, I'm going to be careful about presenting my exact application to Tom, including the final desired gear ratios and my intended uses for the truck.

5. From this point I would try to get blue printed documentation of your existing motor (cam wear, guide wear, cylinder bore and condition, etc.) with the intent of recovering most of your money less the intake and misc. parts.

This is my hearty intention at this point as well!

Anyone else notice Performance Unlimited's initials are PU as in stinks?

Good observation!

Robroy, this sucks, but will turn out better.

Indeed! I'm excited about this much improved motor that will ultimately land in #50.

If the heads are so bad off that guides need replacing, you might consider some Edelbrock heads for it.

I'll ask about this!

I know you are pretty organized, and you probably already do/will, but:

I'd advise you to make a list of questions and options you have and based on some of the things we have said, as well as take pen and paper to make notes about what Tom says.

This I will do--thanks for the suggestion! Even better than a pen and paper will be a video recording, since I'm not able to take notes at the rate Tom transmits his advice, and I don't like to ask an expert to wait for me to write stuff! Plus, I can watch a video again and again, which could help his advice to soak in to my brain.

There is likely to be quite a lot discussed and you don't want to get 30 minutes away from Toms shop and go "Oh I meant to ask about the stroker crank."

Yes, good point!

I got a detailed voicemail from Tom yesterday with a quote, and heard these key points (I may have missed some):

1. He'd like to do a street torque style head porting job for $600, plus port match to the intake for an extra $200 (it's $250 normally but he'll cut me a deal).
2. He'll need install new guides and cut the seats.
3. He'll need to bore and hone with plates, including checking the hone alignment.
4. He'll need to turn and polish the crankshaft, which was also in eaten-up condition.
5. He'd like to use oversized, stainless valves (part 2090165) to assist the head porting.
6. He'd like to use Diamond pistons with Total Seal rings.
7. He'll use new Clevite bearings (I guess the bearings in the engine were toast).
8. He'd use Comp Cams hydraulic valve lifters.
9. He'd use a Canton windage tray (the screen type).

The total for this engine configuration would be $5,946.63.

This sounds very reasonable to me! But I'll talk my application over with Tom when I visit his shop next to make sure it's the best setup possible. He came up with this estimate for me to simplify things (and since we already briefly discussed my setup during my last visit).

Thanks again for all the superb advice!!!
Robroy

[robroy]

Just spoke with Tom a short while ago!

We agreed that I'd come this Friday at 1PM to check out the engine. I heard a few additional points:

• Based on the way the valve guides and keepers were put together, even if I hadn't experienced the immediate, catastrophic failure because of the camshaft going flat, the engine would have probably failed in 10,000 to 20,000 miles anyhow.
• I asked him about his opinion on whether my windage tray mistake caused the problem. I heard that there's no way to know for sure, yet camshafts are known to fail on their own, especially with an improper break in procedure. I asked him if he'd guess that it probably wasn't the windage tray, based on all the other things he discovered about the engine, and heard some agreement there. It seems that the build was definitely shoddy, in his opinion!
• I heard that Tom will provide me with all the detailed measurements and specifications of the engine in writing. So it sounds like I'm free to present that to whomever or whatever purpose I want (meaning, I can show it to the original engine builder if I want).

I wish I could make it to Tom's shop earlier than Friday, but other things have come up this week that I must attend to. At least this way I'll have a highly organized list of questions for him, and a little more time to practice some new photography techniques!

Thanks for all the extremely valuable and generous advice!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I'll organize my thoughts more completely in a while, but:

1) Did those quotes come out right, I remember some other folks saying some of that

2) Did Tom mention what camshaft he was going to use (Make and model IE: Comp XE272)

3) That quote actually sounds very reasonable and it will be a 406 right?

[robroy]

Hey Robert, thanks for your great reply!

1) Did those quotes come out right, I remember some other folks saying some of that

Oh gosh, I'm sorry about that! I had a funny feeling that I'd messed something up with my quoting job, but it looked OK. I'll go through it and make it right.

2) Did Tom mention what camshaft he was going to use (Make and model IE: Comp XE272)

Nope, but I can find out what he had in mind!

3) That quote actually sounds very reasonable and it will be a 406 right?

Yeah doesn't it? You know, I'm not certain about the displacement that his recommended engine will have, but I'll find this out also. I know it will be at least 406, since that may be the minimum displacement he can achieve as a byproduct of correcting the cylinder walls.

Thanks very much Robert!
Robroy

[robroy]

1) Did those quotes come out right, I remember some other folks saying some of that

Oh gosh, I'm sorry about that! I had a funny feeling that I'd messed something up with my quoting job, but it looked OK. I'll go through it and make it right.

I think it's right now! I had mis-quoted several statements made by 70_F100 as being made by yourself--whoops!!!

Thanks Robert!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

1) Did those quotes come out right, I remember some other folks saying some of that

Oh gosh, I'm sorry about that! I had a funny feeling that I'd messed something up with my quoting job, but it looked OK. I'll go through it and make it right.

I think it's right now! I had mis-quoted several statements made by 70_F100 as being made by yourself--whoops!!!

Thanks Robert!
Robroy

Not a problem, those multiple nested quotes can be a bear to edit...

Most of my questions and suggestions at this point are either just curiosity or just to try to give you additional things to ask or consider. I'm very confident Tom will steer you right.

If he can get an honest 375 to 400 HP out of it it should move the truck very well, for a big heavy truck I would take a bit more torque down low over peak HP any day too. 1HP per cubic inch used to be considered a sort of performance nirvana, I believe the first US production engine to do it was the 283/283 power pack in 1957 (283 with Rochester FI) now it is quite common to reach and surpass that.

On the original builder, They did seem to treat you pretty well from your interactions so far, and certainly give them an honest chance, but you may find their attitude change now that they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar so to speak. It is hard to say right now how much of what is wrong is due to being unfamiliar with he FE and how much is related to something else...but one does have to wonder about the motivation for steadfastly recommending no tear down... . I hope that they continue to be stand up and offer some sort of refund. (did you by chance pay by credit card? Some of them extend warranties and although doubtful, it might be possible to dispute)

[robroy]

Good evening Robert, thanks for replying!

Most of my questions and suggestions at this point are either just curiosity or just to try to give you additional things to ask or consider. I'm very confident Tom will steer you right.

Excellent! Yeah he sure knows FEs, and he's owned and raced at least one Bumpside with a hearty FE in it before, so I'll bet he knows a lot about what's good for them!

If he can get an honest 375 to 400 HP out of it it should move the truck very well, for a big heavy truck I would take a bit more torque down low over peak HP any day too.

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. I actually didn't think of asking him what the estimated performance would be of his proposed build. I remember hearing from Tom that he estimated the horsepower of the original engine setup to be 330 to 340. I'm guessing that with the larger valves, head porting, port matching, and added displacement, it might add up to 375 to 400!

1HP per cubic inch used to be considered a sort of performance nirvana, I believe the first US production engine to do it was the 283/283 power pack in 1957 (283 with Rochester FI) now it is quite common to reach and surpass that.

Interesting!

On the original builder, They did seem to treat you pretty well from your interactions so far, and certainly give them an honest chance, but you may find their attitude change now that they have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar so to speak.

Yes, this could be. You're right about them treating me decently so far!

I haven't contacted them again yet with any of the latest findings, since I'm hesitant to do that before I have photos to substantiate my key points. I'm guessing that the combination of highly detailed photos and the official, technical evaluation from Tom will make the situation clear to them--then I'll be quite curious to see how they respond!

It is hard to say right now how much of what is wrong is due to being unfamiliar with he FE and how much is related to something else...but one does have to wonder about the motivation for steadfastly recommending no tear down... .

Indeed!

I hope that they continue to be stand up and offer some sort of refund.

Yes, that's what I'm hoping for too. It would really help me out, since a high performance engine's such a big investment. And it would do wonders for their reputation! It's really a great opportunity for them to make good of the situation.

(did you by chance pay by credit card? Some of them extend warranties and although doubtful, it might be possible to dispute)

That's a good thought! I did pay the entire $8,955 in advance, as a single charge to my Discover card. I may wind up exploring this option, but I still have positive expectations that Doug and Steve at Proformance Unlimited will care about my situation enough to make things right for me.

I would just give 'em a call this week, but it might be a waste of time before I have any solid evidence (photos and Tom's letter), and it could make them less receptive to being presented with the evidence once I've gathered it.

Robert, thanks for all your super generous guidance!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I would just give 'em a call this week, but it might be a waste of time before I have any solid evidence (photos and Tom's letter), and it could make them less receptive to being presented with the evidence once I've gathered it.

Personally, I definitely would not call them before having all the information and pictures.

Edit: Oh one other thing. I've found in situations where you feel you are due some remedy it is best to know and state what you feel an equitable resolution is. I don't know what that is in this case, but I would present the evidence and say "now I want you to _____". I assume that will be some monetary amount, but make sure (as I'm sure you will) that it is a fair request.

[robroy]

Hey Robert! Thanks for letting me know your strong preference here. You're probably right! I suppose without photos and a written statement from the new builder, they wouldn't be in a position to make any decisions. And if they can't make a decision, there's no reason to call. Is your reasoning along those same lines?

Thanks very much Robert!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I suppose without photos and a written statement from the new builder, they wouldn't be in a position to make any decisions. And if they can't make a decision, there's no reason to call. Is your reasoning along those same lines?

That is a big part of it, but you also want them to see they are well and truly caught, it is an implied threat of sorts, you want them to know that you've checked it out throughly, have photographic evidence and a statement from a reputable builder about what was found. You personally can remain completely non-threatening and perhaps they would do the right thing anyway, but it certainly never hurts to have visions of all the ways that these pictures and statements could go badly for the business running through their heads as well.

I added this above while you were posting as well:

Edit: Oh one other thing. I've found in situations where you feel you are due some remedy it is best to know and state what you feel an equitable resolution is. I don't know what that is in this case, but I would present the evidence and say "now I want you to _____". I assume that will be some monetary amount, but make sure (as I'm sure you will) that it is a fair request.

[70shortwide]

Edit: Oh one other thing. I've found in situations where you feel you are due some remedy it is best to know and state what you feel an equitable resolution is. I don't know what that is in this case, but I would present the evidence and say "now I want you to _____". I assume that will be some monetary amount, but make sure (as I'm sure you will) that it is a fair request.

that pretty much sums up what ive been thinking. know what you want from them. I would also add ( and Im sure others can add to this and clarify) that you should be somewhat firm with them on the phone. not impolite but like I said, KNOW WHAT YOU WANT FROM THEM. I would also be clear when you tell them what you expect. like was stated already politeness will most likely be your best weapon. nobody wants to deal with a guy that sounds like hes just taken a couple shots and decided hes going to "settle the problem"

[fuzzier1]

Edit: Oh one other thing. I've found in situations where you feel you are due some remedy it is best to know and state what you feel an equitable resolution is. I don't know what that is in this case, but I would present the evidence and say "now I want you to _____". I assume that will be some monetary amount, but make sure (as I'm sure you will) that it is a fair request.

I agree with the 'Now I want you to_____". But I would tell them the "around $6,000" you have been quoted to fix what they messed up. You shouldn't have to pay twice to have the engine rebuilt, especailly for a basically stock engine.

Now for the other side. The economy SUCKS right now (no sh#t? ) so be prepared to have PU tell you to go pound sand! You will then have to go talk to District court and/or a Liar.... ,oops, a lawyer to see what they can do for you.

The main thing is is DON"T GIVE UP or they (PU) will continue to do this kind of shoddy workmanship again and again. Nobody desereves that.

Good luck,

Fuzz