What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[robroy]

Good morning Robert, Jamie, and 70_F100, thanks for your excellent replies!

did you mean to type, "particularly if you can feel the metal-flake?"

IIRC you had said that you really didn't feel any grit in the puddles of oil except for one instance where you thought you felt something? So that makes me less concerned about the flakes that are causing the "metal-flake" to the oil.

Yes you're absolutely right! When I dipped my finger in the puddles and rubbed my fingers together I couldn't feel it most of the time. One time I could, but mainly not.

I agree, that is what I've meant when I said that they (moby and his friends) could not have been pumped up there, they are too big to go through the pump and oil passages. I suppose its possible that they slung up there but it is also possible that I'll win the powerball (but not likely if you get my drift). I think it is likely that they are due to either less than meticulous clean up after building, or perhaps the partially assembled engine was left open in proximity with other machine work. (this is just a guess though)

I think these are good guesses! Due to the side of the windage tray that was being hit, and the direction the crankshaft was rotating, it was chipping them pieces off in a downwards motion.

I asked about the remaining stud on one of the main bearing cap bolts, and the potential for interference with the windage tray. He recommending removing the bolt and cutting the stud off!

Well, it you are going to pull that bolt you are one bolt from having that cap off, ensure it is marked so you can reinstall it in the same direction and pull that one to inspect the bearing.

If I go this route, that I will most certainly do! Thanks!!!

Although the stud's a good distance from the threads that go in to the engine, doesn't it sound a little reckless to cut one of those bolts in any way? Maybe it would be harmless.

I would be more inclined to replace it with the proper bolt, it might even be useful to someone doing a rear sump conversion, although cutting the stud off should not hurt anything (don't use a cutting torch though).

You're right here--that studded bolt could be useful to somebody. I could toss it in with the spare rear sump and and pickup to make a "set" out of it.

I'll avoid the torch, thanks for warning me!

Oh, one other thing, we should clarify "flake". I mean the silver bits in the oil that make it look like metal flake paint, not Moby.

Thanks for making this explicit!

Just waiting to see what you decide or if you have any more questions.

Thanks for remaining interested and helpful despite my lack of a quick decision!

With the thousands of dollars invested in this engine, WHY RISK IT????

Hey 70_F100, thanks for your spirited reply (no sarcasm intended there)! Below's a list of my current reasons for considering the risk. By listing them, I don't mean to attempt to convince you of the wisdom of taking the risk. I just wanted to explain my reasoning. If you're up for it, a sound rebuttal to each point (or whichever ones you want) could benefit me a lot!

1. Given the evidence, it seems probable to me that an in-truck cleanup would work out fine.
2. The engine builder recommends an in-truck cleanup despite my raising the issue repeatedly.
3. The engine builder may be willing to guarantee the engine for an additional length of time (this needs checking in to) if I do the in-truck cleanup. This is a big one that's still an open question.
4. Since I'm still a beginner, doing this rebuild job, from start to finish, could amount to 40-80 hours of work. And it's the same work I'd need to do regardless of the condition of the engine (meaning, I could do the work when the engine's actually worn out).
5. I have a pronounced dislike for re-doing work that was just done, unless I'm convinced that it's absolutely necessary. It's painful to break apart fresh gaskets.
6. Since I'm not experienced, doing this work myself stands the risk of a poorer end result than leaving it as-is! This is a big one.
7. I'd need to put cash in to tools and gaskets that could be deferred (until a time when I'm sure there's a problem).

No longer than the engine has been run, they SHOULDN'T BE THERE, PERIOD!!!

Okay, I hear you on this point!

Those metal flakes came from somewhere. There could be more of them hiding in the engine. The oil holes in the bearings are always smaller than the passages that feed them. They could be gathering on the ledges there, just waiting to break loose and jump into the lubrication stream.

That's a serious prospect for sure! I guess it would help me to have some evidence as to whether or not there were more large metal flakes hiding in the engine, and tearing it down more is the only way to know.

The engine has had machine work done to it. Was it cleaned properly afterward?

Good question!

Is there a bearing failing? Cam bearing, main bearing, rod bearing?

Is there some other obscure component failing that you're not seeing?

All could be!

I've built literally hundreds of engines in my lifetime, from a 3HP Briggs and Stratton, to big 149-Series Detroit Diesel Railroad/Generator engines, and even after running 500-1000 miles before the first oil change, I've never seen this much metal in the oil from a brand-new engine.

I see your point here, yet I'm a little concerned that your view of the quantity of metal here could be exaggerated. The flash on my camera turns nearly microscopic specks of metal in to the North Star, so to speak! With the naked eye, in normal lighting, that stuff's pretty invisible. I'm tempted to re-take those photos without the flash, in normal lighting.

Robroy, do whatever you think is right. Put it back together as-is. Flush it out and put it back together. Check the bearings and if they're good, put it back together. You've heard opinions on all of these options, all with supporting evidence.

Indeed, and I appreciate the opinions and evidence very much!!! I'd be lost without you guys!

In my humble, yet experienced opinion, if you don't tear this engine down and check everything, you're only asking for trouble. It may not show up for 30-40 thousand miles. On the other hand, the engine could literally disintegrate on a test drive around the block.

True on both points, I suppose. Thanks for your honest and persistent appraisal--you could be right about all this!

Robert, Jamie, and 70_F100, thanks again for the superb replies!!!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I'm going to remain mostly silent for the moment and allow 70_F100 and Jamie to reply.

However, I was thinking earlier about point "d" which I don't think any of us have adressed fully.

And it's the same work I'd need to do regardless of the condition of the engine (meaning, I could do the work when the engine's actually worn out).

This is only partially true, as the metal shaving could (probably would it they wore it out prematurely) damage the crankshaft and possibly the block itself severely. It is nearly certain that the parts and machine shop bill would be MUCH higher than it might otherwise be.

[70_F100]

Good morning Robert, Jamie, and 70_F100, thanks for your excellent replies!

did you mean to type, "particularly if you can feel the metal-flake?"

IIRC you had said that you really didn't feel any grit in the puddles of oil except for one instance where you thought you felt something? So that makes me less concerned about the flakes that are causing the "metal-flake" to the oil.

Yes you're absolutely right! When I dipped my finger in the puddles and rubbed my fingers together I couldn't feel it most of the time. One time I could, but mainly not.

The stuff you CAN'T feel is just as detrimental to the engine as the stuff you CAN feel. It can be dispersed throughout the entire engine, causing excessive premature wear, and, worst case scenario, total failure of the engine.

I agree, that is what I've meant when I said that they (moby and his friends) could not have been pumped up there, they are too big to go through the pump and oil passages. I suppose its possible that they slung up there but it is also possible that I'll win the powerball (but not likely if you get my drift). I think it is likely that they are due to either less than meticulous clean up after building, or perhaps the partially assembled engine was left open in proximity with other machine work. (this is just a guess though)

I think these are good guesses! Due to the side of the windage tray that was being hit, and the direction the crankshaft was rotating, it was chipping them pieces off in a downwards motion.

And possibly propelling them throughout the engine like a pinball machine. Remember that the metal particles were laying on top of the windage tray, and not in the bottom of the pan.

With the thousands of dollars invested in this engine, WHY RISK IT????

Hey 70_F100, thanks for your spirited reply (no sarcasm intended there)! Below's a list of my current reasons for considering the risk. By listing them, I don't mean to attempt to convince you of the wisdom of taking the risk. I just wanted to explain my reasoning. If you're up for it, a sound rebuttal to each point (or whichever ones you want) could benefit me a lot!

1. Since I'm still a beginner, doing this rebuild job, from start to finish, could amount to 40-80 hours of work. And it's the same work I'd need to do regardless of the condition of the engine (meaning, I could do the work when the engine's actually worn out).
   
   Right now, you have a good crankshaft, camshaft, and other internal components. Are you willing to take a chance on spinning a main bearing, knowing that if that occurs, the block will be ruined?
2. I have a pronounced dislike for re-doing work that was just done, unless I'm convinced that it's absolutely necessary. It's painful to break apart fresh gaskets.
   
   Not nearly as painful as having to do it all again in 1,000 miles...
3. Since I'm not experienced, doing this work myself stands the risk of a poorer end result than leaving it as-is! This is a big one.
   
   The few dollars it will cost to have someone else do it for you will be money well spent.
   
   

   Those metal flakes came from somewhere. There could be more of them hiding in the engine. The oil holes in the bearings are always smaller than the passages that feed them. They could be gathering on the ledges there, just waiting to break loose and jump into the lubrication stream.

   That's a serious prospect for sure! I guess it would help me to have some evidence as to whether or not there were more large metal flakes hiding in the engine, and tearing it down more is the only way to know.
   
   I'd probably be MORE concerned about the smaller particles. Chances are, the larger ones will fall into the oil pan. The smaller ones will be circulating throughout your engine like cancer cells. Another comparison is to a computer virus. The easy-to-identify viruses get caught by your anti-virus software. It's the obscure ones that get past it that can wreack havoc on the system.
   

   Is there a bearing failing? Cam bearing, main bearing, rod bearing?
   
   Is there some other obscure component failing that you're not seeing?

   All could be!
   
   Here's an example: Is the expansion plug in the rear cam bore installed too deeply and wearing on the camshaft?
   

   I've built literally hundreds of engines in my lifetime, from a 3HP Briggs and Stratton, to big 149-Series Detroit Diesel Railroad/Generator engines, and even after running 500-1000 miles before the first oil change, I've never seen this much metal in the oil from a brand-new engine.

   I see your point here, yet I'm a little concerned that your view of the quantity of metal here could be exaggerated. The flash on my camera turns nearly microscopic specks of metal in to the North Star, so to speak! With the naked eye, in normal lighting, that stuff's pretty invisible. I'm tempted to re-take those photos without the flash, in normal lighting.
   
   No, I don't think my view is exaggerated. We know that the larger chunks came from the windage tray, and possibly many of the smaller ones also. Where did the other small ones originate? ANY metal that appears this quickly is a GOOD indicator that there's something wrong. Failing to identify the source could cause a catastrophic failure.

I guess it's time for me to get off my soapbox. I feel like I've presented my case very well, providing substantiation for all of my defenses.

What you do now is your choice. I'm not one to say, "I told you so," but if you decide to take the easy way out, just remember that I haven't given you any bad advice in the past.

[robroy]

My next post will contain a full report, including Tom's opinion. Stay tuned!

I've been called to attend to a small job, so I'll need to post this later on this afternoon! Thanks for being patient!!!

Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I spent forty minutes on the phone with Tom at FE Specialties this morning!

While I wait for the full report, that right there says an AWFUL lot good about him!

He build Howdy69's 410 and though I don't think we have heard form Howdy in a while, I recall the price being rather reasonable and him being quite pleased.

[robroy]

Hey Robert thanks for replying!

I agree that talking to me for forty minutes on the phone does say a lot! Moreover, he sounded genuinely sympathetic to my situation and at no point during our conversation did I detect the slightest impatience or "pulling" to get off the phone. He made lots of good points and really listened when I spoke.

By the time I'd called, Tom had already spent some time going through my long mail and reading this thread (I included a link in the mail). At the end of this post, I'll include my mail to him and the mail he wrote back to me after our phone call (I explicitly got his permission to post his mail).

Here are some notes I took from our conversation:

1. In Tom's opinion the engine really needs to be pulled completely apart and cleaned out.
2. The debris in the photos looked super dangerous and should never normally be in an engine.
3. Tom's biggest concern with the debris is that it could contaminate the crankshaft, which could spread it even further through the whole engine.
4. In addition to the bearings, Tom was concerned about the debris damaging the cam lobes, lifters, timing chain/gears, piston skirts, and oil pump.
5. In Tom's opinion, the large chunks either came from somewhere in the valve train (bad), or were thrown up there somehow. But since the engine has a windage tray under the intake manifold, it seemed unlikely that they were thrown there.
6. Tom recommended that I test the large chunks with a magnet to determine whether or not they're steel.
7. Tom recommends using a crankshaft windage tray made by Canton, because it's a "screen tray," which has lots of small holes for the oil to drain back out of. He mentioned that the stock Ford tray doesn't drain oil quickly enough, and that if customers want to use those trays, he drills extra holes in them to help 'em drain.
8. He mentioned that the 5 quart pans are OK, but he never recommends using a 4 quart oil an with a high volume oil pump, since the pump will actually drain the pan dry! I didn't directly hear this from him, but got the impression that he prefers to use oil pans with greater capacity than 5 quarts.
9. While looking at this photo of the driver's side head: http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4405z.JPG, Tom noticed that only one of the bolts holding the rocker shaft down was a grade eight. In his opinion, those bolts should all be grade eight--in this type of setup, he's seen problems with grade 5 bolts.
10. Again in the same image, and in other images of these heads, Tom noted that the pushrods don't have enough clearance with their passages in the intake manifold. They're too close on the bottom, and that could lead to problems. He would assemble it differently to place them squarely in the middle of those passages.
11. While it's apart, Tom could port the heads and port match them to the intake. And while he didn't mention this (I didn't ask), I'm sure he would cut a new surface on the exhaust side of the heads for me.

I also heard from Tom that he'd be happy to do the job. He said that the tear down would cost $276, and assembling it without blueprinting it would be $800. To assemble it with blueprinting would cost $1,200. I got the impression that by "blueprint," he meant that he would balance every part and check the clearances and tolerances super carefully.

I heard that he could get the job complete within about two weeks.

If he were to go the blueprinting route, he would warranty the engine for 12 months/12,000 miles. He couldn't give me a warranty on the engine without blueprinting it (which makes sense to me, since he'd be giving a warranty for another shop's work)!

Here's my long mail to Tom Lucas (sorry for the odd text formatting):

Subject: Could I ask for advice on contamination in my new 390?

Good afternoon FE Specialties!

I was referred to you by members of the Fordification.com Web forum (a forum for 1967-1972 pickups). I'm writing to ask your advice on how to address an issue with my engine, and to ask whether you'd be intersted in doing the work.

A year ago I bought a turn-key, crate 390 from Proformance Unlimited. At the time, I didn't know that your shop existed, or I would have definitely bought from you instead!

Here's a photo of the engine:

http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_3936s.JPG

When I received the engine from Proformance Unlimited it had a 4x4, rear sump oil pan on it with no windage tray. Since this wouldn't fit in my 4x2 pickup, I installed a front sump pan and a windage tray. After putting this together, I failed to turn the engine over by hand to check for clearance with the crankshaft.

Months passed.

A week ago I finally fired up the engine, and heard a loud tapping sound! The crankshaft was eating the edge of my windage tray. It took me about ten minutes to locate the source of the sound, so the engine ran for ten minutes total (mostly idling).

I got the area pulled apart and found some metal shavings in the oil pan. Furthermore, my oil pump was all scratched up inside.

Although a dissection of the oil filter showed that it did its job extremely well, I did find some metal shavings in oil pools up in the heads. I'm not if they came from the windage tray or not, but they were up there.

Here's a photo of the left head (I don't think you can see much, but it might give you an idea about the parts used in the engine):

http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4405z.JPG

Here's a photo of the biggest pieces of metal I found on the right head:

http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4350z.JPG
http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4356z.JPG

And the biggest pieces I found in on the left head:

http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4413z.JPG

Here are some photos of the eaten up oil pump (a Melling HV pump):

The top cover: http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4314z.JPG
The inside surface: http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4316z.JPG
The little gear: http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4318z.JPG
The little gear: http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4321z.JPG
A shaving: http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4330z.JPG

Buddies of mine on the Fordification forum have suggested that I pull the engine out and take it all apart, carefully cleaning every piece of it to flush out all the metal specks and shavings. Then put it all back together.

I wouldn't considering sending it back to Proformance Unlimited, because it's out of warranty. And besides, I caused the problem by not checking the clearances when installing the windage tray, so I feel responsible for it.

I'm an amateur mechanic and would like to tackle this myself, but you have a great reputation and I think the results would be much better if this were done by you!

Thanks for reading! Would it be possible for you to answer these specific questions?

1. Based on the photos, do you think it's best to rip the engine all apart to flush it out? Or is that type of debris kind of minor--do you think I could flush it out without taking the engine all apart?
2. Is this work that you'd be interested in doing? (I live in Salinas so I could drive the engine up to you).
3. If you would be interested in doing this, what would a ballpark estimate be on your charge (just for labor)?
4. If I took the engine all apart, cleaned it very thoroughly, and brought you the well organized and super clean pieces, would you be able to assemble it for a reduced labor charge? I'd completely understand if you'd really rather not receive boxes of parts! But I thought I'd ask.

Here's the Fordification forum thread that covers this issue, in case you're interested:

http://www.fordification.com/forum/view ... =3&t=45367

Thank you VERY much for reading my mail, for your advice and for considering the job!

Robroy

Robroy Gregg
Salinas, California

Here's Tom's great reply!

Hi Robroy,

Here is a follow-up on our phone conversation!! Sorry about the problem you encountered!!

Well there are a few items here that need to addressed. Any loose metal debris in a motor while running can have detrimental effects on piston skirts, cam lobes, oil pumps and timing gears/chains. If the metal shavings reach through the filter and into the oil galleries due to either the filter being of low quality or if the filter was bypassing, then bearing damage will ensue!!

Usually, the filter will due its job for a good period of time, if the debris is not too heavy.

Big pieces of metal cannot make their way up through the filter and into the oil galleries and past the rocker shafts. The debris would stop at either the rocker bolt feed, or try to get past the main, rod, or cam bearings. Any debris that makes its way past the filter will damage the bearings, but I don't believe that this happened in your case, but only inspection will verify this!!!

Since there was a lot of debris on the pump side of the oil filter and the filter looked clean on the motor side. It's probably safe to assume that the filter did its job. That does not clear the motor of any problems from the loose pieces. They can suspend in the oil and cause damage to the pistons, cam, etc. The cam/lifter is the biggest issue here and biggest potential problem.

As I stated. the cost for disassembly and inspection is $276.00. The cost for reassembly without blueprinting is $850.00

One note is that I do not include a warranty on any motor that is not blueprinted!!! Warranty is 12 months or 12,000 miles whichever comes first, on the blueprinted motor.

The cost for Blueprint and reassembly is $1200.00 for long block and $400.00 more to finish the complete motor, for a total of $1,600.00

Total labor is $1876.00. Plus the gaskets, oil and filter, screen windage tray we talked about and any other upgrades we choose to do.

The gasket set is $80.00 for the stock fel-pro, and $180.00 for the custom high performance fel-pro set.

Windage tray is $95.00. Oil pump is $50.00.

I can take your motor in on Saturday if necessary, you just have to let me know if you would like to bring it on a Saturday.

Remember, we can look to make a positive out of the negative that you have, either in identifying other potential problems, or upgrading existing components!!

Thanks for you inquiry!!

Tom Lucas
FE Specialties

I'm considering taking this engine to Tom, then spending the time I would have spent doing it myself on my occupation instead, to help pay Tom's bill. I'm pretty certain the end result would be better if Tom did the engine, and my customers would be happy to hear from me. I spend so much time playing with #50 and not doing their jobs as it is!

Thanks very much for the superb advice!!! What do ya'll think of this idea, of hiring Tom to do this?

Robroy

[70_F100]

Thanks very much for the superb advice!!! What do ya'll think of this idea, of hiring Tom to do this?

Robroy

I think you already know my answer, but...

[DuckRyder]

Tom explains it better, but he sounds a good bit like us...

Great eye on the bolts, I cannot believe we missed those.

I really think you would end up with a much better engine (and more warranty) if you let him do it.

Both Jamie and F100 mentioned it, but there are some things that concern us about the build, like the stock main and head bolts on such a high horsepower engine, until this problem arose there was nothing so egregious that we (or at least I) wanted to make you displeased with the engine though.

Having Tom go through it you will have some one who really knows FE's and you will know it is right. I know 2000.00 (maybe a bit more) is a lot of money, but when you start comparing it to what just a few major parts cost, it starts looking like a bargain.

I'd suggest asking for ARP main and head bolts and rocker studs... Perhaps he or you could also repaint it, if brake cleaner is taking the paint off, it won't look good for long in the truck.

[robroy]

I really think you would end up with a much better engine (and more warranty) if you let him do it.

The warranty part really means a lot, doesn't it? Especially on a high performance engine that might be pushed to its limits more often than a regular car engine.

Thanks Robert!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I really think you would end up with a much better engine (and more warranty) if you let him do it.

The warranty part really means a lot, doesn't it? Especially on a high performance engine that might be pushed to its limits more often than a regular car engine.

I think so, and if he's willing to put his name on it and stand behind it you have even more assurance he is going to do it right.

I am starting to sort of see this in a different light, someone was looking over you because having to pull it back apart allowed you to find this stuff before it did any really severe damage.

The bolts are probably different because one bolt on each bank is slightly longer and has a reduced shank to facilitate oiling. Why they didn't use all the stock bolts I don't know, but the two are pretty special bolts.

[Ranchero50]

Sounds like you may have found a savior for #50 and may even see close to the guestimates on HP. One real good and honest thing you will find out is if you got what you purchased in the beginning. Hopefully the blueprinting doesn't show up a lot of little defects in the workmanship that require a lot of rework.

It's an expensive pill to swallow, but I feel you'll have 120-150% better motor than you started with (and the paint may even stick to it)

A warranty says the builder has confidence in their work. Honestly that motor won't get pushed harder than a stocker for 99% of it's use. It is a comfort for that other 1%.

Jamie

[DuckRyder]

Perhaps he or you could also repaint it, if brake cleaner is taking the paint off, it won't look good for long in the truck.

Indeed! I was surprised when I heard that the engine had been rattle-canned. It would be nice to get some hard core, durable paint on it!

POR15 Ford Blue It does come in other colors.

[robroy]

Hey Robert and Jamie thanks for replying!

I think so, and if he's willing to put his name on it and stand behind it you have even more assurance he is going to do it right.

Indeed!

I am starting to sort of see this in a different light, someone was looking over you because having to pull it back apart allowed you to find this stuff before it did any really severe damage.

Indeed, in this way the discovery has been highly beneficial! Maybe some good deeds are catching up to me here.

The bolts are probably different because one bolt on each bank is slightly longer and has a reduced shank to facilitate oiling. Why they didn't use all the stock bolts I don't know, but the two are pretty special bolts.

Okay! Now that you mention it, I remember Tom mentioning something about that. Yet he maintained the grade eight bolts are necessary in that area, no matter what.

Sounds like you may have found a savior for #50 and may even see close to the guestimates on HP.

Indeed it does! More power would be fun, although I may not be able to use it 'cause of the traction. But still!

One real good and honest thing you will find out is if you got what you purchased in the beginning. Hopefully the blueprinting doesn't show up a lot of little defects in the workmanship that require a lot of rework.

Yes, I'd be quite curious to hear what Tom could come up with.

It's an expensive pill to swallow, but I feel you'll have 120-150% better motor than you started with (and the paint may even stick to it)

It seems like you're probably right!

A warranty says the builder has confidence in their work.

I know what you mean.

Honestly that motor won't get pushed harder than a stocker for 99% of it's use. It is a comfort for that other 1%.

True!

Robert and Jamie, thanks for your excellent replies!
Robroy

[robroy]

POR15 Ford Blue It does come in other colors.

Hey Robert thanks for that link! That's the first time I've seen your uninstalled engine! It does look GREAT with that paint.

After four years of driving the truck, how's the paint holding up? Any discoloration around the exhaust ports?

Thanks again Robert!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

POR15 Ford Blue It does come in other colors.

Hey Robert thanks for that link! That's the first time I've seen your uninstalled engine! It does look GREAT with that paint.

After four years of driving the truck, how's the paint holding up? Any discoloration around the exhaust ports?

See also:

http://www.por15.com/ENGINE-PAINTING-KI ... info/EPKA/

The truck doesn't get driven a great deal, but the paint around the exhaust ports is turning slightly dark, otherwise it is holding up nicely.