What's this loud tapping sound from my new engine?

[DuckRyder]

I am not prepared to jump firmly into one camp or another here (yet), I agree with what has been said, but it is a matter of degrees, what I did would depend on what I found in the oil filter and heads. (the oil pump looks pretty bad from where I sit)

I will say this, robroy has been in constant contact with the builder and it seems to me that they have done the right thing by him so far. I believe he made it known what the application was and they supplied it with an incompatible pan. I also believe they agreed to pay for the correct pan and associated hardware and for robroy to install it. That probably saved them a boatload of money shipping it back and so forth, but when they agreed to that I think they bear some responsibility, I think robroy even discussed the parts selection and installation with them.

I think the next step at this point is to dissect the filter, pull the valve covers and give the builder a call with the results and see what they recommend and what they are willing to do.

I wish I was closer I'd go over and help... I feel like this is a community project!

robroy, don't get too discouraged by this this sort of stuff sometimes happens despite our best efforts to do everything correctly.

[70_F100]

robroy, don't get too discouraged by this this sort of stuff sometimes happens despite our best efforts to do everything correctly.

I wish I was closer I'd go over and help... I feel like this is a community project!

Let's just all jump on a plane, fly out to California, and help him. That would make a GREAT "Meet and Greet", don't you think??

[fordman]

could you see five or six guys trying to rebuild one engine on a stand at the same time?

[robroy]

Good day! Thanks for all the superb replies!!!

First, I apologize for not replying in detail to every post--they came so furiously for a while there that I couldn't keep up!

As for how much money to put into the truck, I asked Robroy essentially the same question once.

He basically said that his intention was to build the truck to be as reliable as a brand new one, and that even though he may have as much money in it as a new one when finished, and he would have the satisfaction of knowing that he did it. He also said that he would have a truck that he, himself, can work on. Not a direct quote, by any means, but my best recollection of the conversation, paraphrased.

That's pretty much it!

Based on the amount of time, money and effort that he's put into it so far, along with the conversations we've had, I have tried, through my last post, to convey to him the potential seriousness of the situation. I didn't try to sugar-coat it, because I think Robroy appreciates in-depth information. Just look at the detail he puts into his posts!!!

I appreciate your honest and detailed response very much indeed!

With that being said, I personally would pull the engine and disassemble it totally, even down to breaking down the heads to clean the valve guides. Overkill? Maybe. Peace of mind? Undoubtedly. There are enough other things that can go wrong without gambling on something that you already know is a potential problem. Where is a nice-sized piece of that ground-up metal hibernating inside the engine, just waiting to be awakened???

I see what you're saying here. As for whether I, personally, am going to rip the engine completely apart, probably not. Since I'm inexperienced, I'd either work on the rebuild for about a year in the garage (which I'm not inclined to do), or hire it out (with the significant trouble of moving the engine around).

Is the builder going to help? VERY doubtful. Is there a chance that Milodon would provide a little relief? Probably not, but it may be worth asking them, especially if there was no instruction sheet or disclaimer included with the tray.

I agree that neither of these folks are inclined to help much. Although the engine builder was involved and made a mistake that caused me to go down this road, it was my inexperience that caused the problem. So I take full responsibility.

Thinking back to Robroy's previous posts, the one saving grace is that he had enough foresight to quiet down the exhaust before firing the engine. Can you imagine what the condition of his engine would be now, if he had run it with open headers so that the noise he so fortunately heard was not overshadowed by the sound of open exhaust???

Yeah true! I could have run the engine for hours and thoroughly spread that stuff around in there.

I wish I was closer I'd go over and help... I feel like this is a community project!

Teleportation!

#50 has been build to a high degree based on all the outstanding advice you guys have offered me, so in a sense it is a group project!

robroy, don't get too discouraged by this this sort of stuff sometimes happens despite our best efforts to do everything correctly.

Thanks! Yeah I'm not too discouraged. I figure the road I'm going down, including making these types of mistakes, is a classic one that many cars guys travel. I'm receiving a great education here!!!

Let's just all jump on a plane, fly out to California, and help him. That would make a GREAT "Meet and Greet", don't you think??

That's what Kasie says whenever I hit a snag. "Why don't you fly out the Fordification guys to help you with it?" Last night, I was also telling her what one of the Fordification engine experts had said in some post. Then later, she saw "DuckRyder" on the screen and said, "Why didn't you just say DuckRyder? I know who DuckRyder is."

could you see five or six guys trying to rebuild one engine on a stand at the same time?

Now that would be worth videotaping!

Thanks for the truly excellent advice!
Robroy

[70_F100]

could you see five or six guys trying to rebuild one engine on a stand at the same time?

Ever been to an NHRA or IHRA drag race, and watched them freshen-up a funny car engine between runs???

We could have #50 torn down, rebuilt and "strokin" in about an hour!!!

[DuckRyder]

What do ya'll think of Steve's response?

I know it doesn't really sound like it, but we are all saying basically the same thing, Steve's advice runs closely along with mine and Jamie's as long as nothing too egregious is found in the top end under the valve covers. If the heads under the valve covers look bad, then I know me and Jamie are going to sound a lot more like 70_F100 and I bet Steve would too.

It is difficult sometimes to quantify what "a lot" of metal and "damage" looks like, coupled with not being able to actually see and feel it "in the flesh" we have to make judgments and offer opinions based on our experience.

Along with that experience comes the reality that what we would do with our level of knowledge and experience might not be what you should do. I can have an engine out, torn down, cleaned up, reassembled and running in a couple of days if parts don't hold me up. It isn't a big deal to me and I'd bet it isn't to Jamie or 70_F100 either. To the average guy, it probably is. This is not an insult it is just varied experience, I bet you can build a server in a couple of days and have full confidence it is going to work flawlessly for a long time, me, I would take weeks and be lucky not to burn the house down...

I think your assessment of turning a 200,000 mile engine into a 150,000 mile engine is appropriate, although my guess would be more like 170,000 - 180,000.

The very most important thing here is going to be getting absolutely as much of that metal out of there as possible. I agree with after doing so changing the oil after a quick run, and would go so far as to say do it a few times. I'd either use diesel oil or a zinc/moly additive and a magnetic drain plug too.

[robroy]

Hey 70_F100 and Robert, thanks for replying!

Ever been to an NHRA or IHRA drag race, and watched them freshen-up a funny car engine between runs???

We could have #50 torn down, rebuilt and "strokin" in about an hour!!!

That sounds great! Then I could watch the video in slow motion again and again to learn how you guys did it! I'd recommend playing the "SWAT" TV show theme music during this event.

I know it doesn't really sound like it, but we are all saying basically the same thing, Steve's advice runs closely along with mine and Jamie's as long as nothing too egregious is found in the top end under the valve covers. If the heads under the valve covers look bad, then I know me and Jamie are going to sound a lot more like 70_F100 and I bet Steve would too.

I see what you mean! I'll check those areas out in detail and post photos.

It is difficult sometimes to quantify what "a lot" of metal and "damage" looks like, coupled with not being able to actually see and feel it "in the flesh" we have to make judgments and offer opinions based on our experience.

I hear you!

Along with that experience comes the reality that what we would do with our level of knowledge and experience might not be what you should do. I can have an engine out, torn down, cleaned up, reassembled and running in a couple of days if parts don't hold me up. It isn't a big deal to me and I'd bet it isn't to Jamie or 70_F100 either. To the average guy, it probably is. This is not an insult it is just varied experience, I bet you can build a server in a couple of days and have full confidence it is going to work flawlessly for a long time, me, I would take weeks and be lucky not to burn the house down...

Indeed, I'm sure that's a factor behind the more in depth engine inspection suggestions. Some day I'd love to learn all about engine rebuilding, but unless I'm convinced that it's truly necessary, I'm not ready for that at the moment!

I think your assessment of turning a 200,000 mile engine into a 150,000 mile engine is appropriate, although my guess would be more like 170,000 - 180,000.

I'd probably be willing to take that risk! By the time I have put 170,000 miles on this truck, my entire situation could be really different from how it is today. Maybe by then I will have practiced some engine work on another vehicle and be ready to tackle a rebuild myself.

The very most important thing here is going to be getting absolutely as much of that metal out of there as possible. I agree with after doing so changing the oil after a quick run, and would go so far as to say do it a few times. I'd either use diesel oil or a zinc/moly additive and a magnetic drain plug too.

Understood! I'll put on a big plastic mask and a respirator, then flush the heck out of that thing.

Should I be turning the engine over (by hand) from time to time as I flush it, or is that dangerous once most of the oil has been washed out?

I've got the magnetic drain plug part covered--that's the default plug on the Milodon pan.

What's the reason behind using diesel oil or a zinc/moly additive?

THANKS very much for the excellent help!
Robroy

[Ranchero50]

Robroy, I'm impressed with everything so far. It sounds like all the advisors are leaning in the same direction. You'll want to rotate the motor over while cleaning it out. Personally, I'd wash everything down with kerosene (if it was out), brake cleaner if not, then clean / scrub all the nooks were debri can hid with an old tooth brush or nylon bottle cleaner, then wash it down again. The goal being the brake cleaner is a degreaser / loosener of the trash, the brush gets it moving, then the wash flushes it again.

For perspective, when I was putting the 302 together in my '93 mustang, I was running it 120 miles a day to DC and back and it was pumping over two quarts of oil out a trip. I made a remote oil breather / catcher thing so I could dump the oil back in the motor before coming home... Same motor got an AutoZone crank kit later (which was bent when I unpacked it). I used some washers under the middle main cap to tweak the crank back into shape ebcause I didn't have time to wait for another crank to show up. I have 80k miles on this motor with the blower and heads it makes 390 RWHP and runs as good now as when I built it.

Jamie

[george worley]

Robroy with your can-do attitude and attention to detail and all the greatadvice you have received dealing with this problem I have to say "they ain't no way that this isnot going to be successful".You have myself and a couple of my friends who are interested in this project pulling for you.

George

[robroy]

Hey Jamie and George, thanks for replying!

Jamie, I'll follow your directions for spraying it out! I'll use brake cleaner since the engine's still hanging out in the truck. It will probably strip the paint off the crossmember but that's a necessary evil! And thanks for the tip on using an old tooth brush! Using my current brush would put a really funny flavor in my mouth later on. Seriously though, a toothbrush is a good idea!

And thanks for the story about your 302!

Robroy with your can-do attitude and attention to detail and all the greatadvice you have received dealing with this problem I have to say "they ain't no way that this isnot going to be successful".You have myself and a couple of my friends who are interested in this project pulling for you.

Hey George thanks for the supportive response!

I have all the parts ordered from Summit, and I'm headed out to take a valve cover off (and remove the oil filter)! I'll update this thread again with photos before the day's through.

Thanks for the generous words of wisdom!
Robroy

[robroy]

One more question I have: since the parts won't arrive for one or two days, I could send a good deal of time flushing out the engine. Should I take care to avoid flushing it out too well, then leaving it over night? Could it begin to rust very quickly?

If rusting is a concern, would it make sense to flush it out as well as possible, then be sure to spray some WD-40 all over before leaving it for the night?

Or would it really be best to just do this all at once, so I never need to leave it overnight?

Thanks very much for the superb guidance!
Robroy

[fordman]

could you see five or six guys trying to rebuild one engine on a stand at the same time?

Ever been to an NHRA or IHRA drag race, and watched them freshen-up a funny car engine between runs???

We could have #50 torn down, rebuilt and "strokin" in about an hour!!!

yea thos eguys carry enough stuff to rebuild a whole engine with them in thier trailer. i have sen them do it in about an hour so they could get in on the next run.

[robroy]

Here's the inspection report for underneath the passenger's side valve cover!


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4335z.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4336z.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4339.JPG

Any idea what these funny scratch marks are in the rocker arm finish?


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4340z.JPG

Could they have been caused by these protrusions in the valve cover, perhaps?


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4347z.JPG


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4348z.JPG

I did find some metal shavings in the area, but I'm not sure whether or not they're truly shavings from my windage tray. Here's the only Moby-Dick I found:


http://www.robroygregg.com/Number50/IMG_4350z.JPG

My reason for doubting that this came from the windage tray is based on its texture and color. Unless it underwent a severe makeover in the guts of the engine, it looks rather different from the "gold iridited" windage tray finish. One side looks blackish while the other side has a dull, raw steel finish.

The other bits of debris were much smaller. Here are the runners up to Moby-Dick:



Then there were some nearly microscopic specs here and there. Other than that it looked perfectly clean, so I'm not sure what to make of it!

Based on these results, would the results from the driver's side valve cover still be relevant?

Thanks very much for taking a look!
Robroy

[DuckRyder]

I don't think that is from the windage tray... the question is WHAT IS IT FROM?

I'm at a loss at the moment...

You have the arrow pointing to the top of the cover, but it could be the corresponding casting on the bottom...

The good news is that the oil doesn't look like metal flake from here...

[Ranchero50]

Moby looks like a chunk of casting flash (dark grey cast iron) where from? Who knows. Heck, what's another valve cover gasket at this point? I'm not sure about the rocker marks, looks almost like someone was sloppy with a spring tension checking tool but why would you check it after it had run. Wonder what Steve thinks?

Jamie